Two Lucky Princes: A TL

[Janprimus]

Indeed, as much as I find Charles V and Philip II pretty cool guys the funky genetics they had really meant their successors weren't up to scratch.



So we could have Philip as Holy Roman Emperor; but since his son Charles was born roughly around the POD the butterflies won't affect him either. This also means that Ferdinand II isn't likely to become Emperor. And while the Habsburgs don't have Spanish gold, they do have the rich provinces of the Netherlands regardless (and are still staring at the Ottomans down south).

And an English Cardinal Henry 200+ years ahead of schedule, interesting, interesting...

Well the funky genetics only really came about due to their (Habsburg) marriage politics further down the OTL road. ITTL the Aviz-Trastamara, Tudors or Valois (or Bourbon) could end up in a similar matter as the Habsburgs IOTL.

 

[Janprimus]

That's a possibility. Still, he will have to face Francis I of France (unless he's also been butterflied away of course) who also wanted to be Holy Roman Emperor. The competition between Francis I and the Hapsburg might be fiercer than it was OTL.

Since the Habsburgs now have an even stronger case case of being 'German' and none foreign, they could have won the election more easily, furthermore it was mostly gold provided by the Fuggers, which was used for the bribes.

They most likely will remain rivals, but the Habsburgs are a lot less threatening ITTL; maybe ITTL the main rivalry will be with the Aviz-Trastamaras and not the Habsburgs...

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Since the Habsburgs now have an even stronger case case of being 'German' and none foreign, they could have won the election more easily, furthermore it was mostly gold provided by the Fuggers, which was used for the bribes.

They most likely will remain rivals, but the Habsburgs are a lot less threatening ITTL; maybe ITTL the main rivalry will be with the Aviz-Trastamaras and not the Habsburgs...

I think you just saw through what I was planning for the 16th century...

 

[Janprimus]

A Hapsburg princess could become Miguel's consort Queen to strengthen the ties between the Iberians and the Hapsburgs.
Other than that, I could see a French princess since the House of Aviz is a bastard line of the previous Royal House of Portugal, the House of Burgundy, whom itself is a branch of the Capetians (descendants of Robert II of France). Thus Miguel I of Iberia and Francis I of France are long distant cousins. A French marriage could also be arranged for a political deal.
An English princess could also be an interesting and plausible scenario... Maybe a daughter of Arthur Tudor and Catherine of Aragon?
After that, I think we would need to look for an Italian princess. But one of the three options I stated before would seem more logical.

The most likely Habsburg princess would be Eleanor of Austria, the elder sister of IOTL Charles V.
And a Tudor candidate could be Mary Tudor (daughter of Henry VII).

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I find it unlikely for the Hapsburg to go Protestant, In fact in all likelihood Germany remains Catholic because a large reason that Luther was able to preach was Charles V was focused on Spain and the Ottomans and by the time he attempted to defeat Protestantism Luther had gotten to much allies.

I think Phillip the Handsome would focus much of the Hapsburg kingdom against the Ottomans

I suggest Mary Tudor as wife of young Manuel I

 

[Janprimus]

I find it unlikely for the Hapsburg to go Protestant, In fact in all likelihood Germany remains Catholic because a large reason that Luther was able to preach was Charles V was focused on Spain and the Ottomans and by the time he attempted to defeat Protestantism Luther had gotten to much allies.

I think Phillip the Handsome would focus much of the Hapsburg kingdom against the Ottomans

I suggest Mary Tudor as wife of young Manuel I

I agree with most of it, but IMHO they will focus a part of their attention on the Ottomans ITTL too. Not to mention the fact that the Habsburg will want (re-) acquire the crowns of Hungary and Bohemia; and ITTL the main Habsburg heir would be the Habsburg candidate for Hungary and Bohemia.
Does Vladislaus II of Bohemia and Hungary have a male heir ITTL, because according to the treaty of Pressburg (now Bratislava) of 1491, Maximilian (and his male line heirs) would be his successor. Given the Ottoman threat Hungary is facing, they may welcome the Habsburgs.

Furthermore I suggest Eleanor of Habsburg as wife of young Manuel.

 

[Yorel]

Does Vladislaus II of Bohemia and Hungary have a male heir ITTL, because according to the treaty of Pressburg (now Bratislava) of 1491, Maximilian (and his male line heirs) would be his successor. Given the Ottoman threat Hungary is facing, they may welcome the Habsburgs.

Vladislaus II of Hungary had two children OTL :
-Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1547), who became the wife of Ferdinand of Habsburg (Charles V's brother and successor as Holy Roman Emperor) in 1521.
-Louis II of Hungary (1506-1526), King from 1516 to 1526. He died in the Battle of Mohacs, who marked the conquest of Hungary by the Ottomans. He had married Mary of Habsburg (a sister of Charles V) in 1522.

The first butterfly is in 1491. I'm not sure the butterfly would be strong enough to get rid of those two.

I suggest Mary Tudor as wife of young Manuel I

Furthermore I suggest Eleanor of Habsburg as wife of young Manuel.

I woud love to suggest a French princess, but that seems less plausible than Mary Tudor or Eleanor of Habsburg...

 

[Janprimus]

Vladislaus II of Hungary had two children OTL :
-Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1547), who became the wife of Ferdinand of Habsburg (Charles V's brother and successor as Holy Roman Emperor) in 1521.
-Louis II of Hungary (1506-1526), King from 1516 to 1526. He died in the Battle of Mohacs, who marked the conquest of Hungary by the Ottomans. He had married Mary of Habsburg (a sister of Charles V) in 1522.

The first butterfly is in 1491. I'm not sure the butterfly would be strong enough to get rid of those two.




I woud love to suggest a French princess, but that seems less plausible than Mary Tudor or Eleanor of Habsburg...

Well OTL Vladislaus II only married the mother of his surviving legitimate children, his third wife, in 1502. A lot of things can happen between 1491 and 1502, perhaps Vladislaus doesn't divorce his first or second wife?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Vladislaus II of Hungary had two children OTL :
-Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1547), who became the wife of Ferdinand of Habsburg (Charles V's brother and successor as Holy Roman Emperor) in 1521.
-Louis II of Hungary (1506-1526), King from 1516 to 1526. He died in the Battle of Mohacs, who marked the conquest of Hungary by the Ottomans. He had married Mary of Habsburg (a sister of Charles V) in 1522.

I'm actually thinking of making Louis II survive in Mohacs but make another monarch die there (hint, hint).

And don't forget that Arthur lives longer, and the entire point of my making him live longer was to have him and Catherine produce heirs...

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I'm actually thinking of making Louis II survive in Mohacs but make another monarch die there (hint, hint).

And don't forget that Arthur lives longer, and the entire point of my making him live longer was to have him and Catherine produce heirs...

That would butterfly the chance of the Anglican church from arising so England remains Catholic. Sounds cool.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

That would butterfly the chance of the Anglican church from arising so England remains Catholic. Sounds cool.

I already put forward that Arthur kept England faithful through the turbulent 16th century.

The Beginning of an Illustrious Rule

Arthur I became king of England in 1509, upon the death of his father Henry VII. By then he and Catherine had a daughter, named Mary (called Maria in Spanish)[1], born in 1503, and Catherine was expecting another child (though sadly one who died in infancy; their third child would be the only surviving son Arthur and Catherine would have, named Henry). His brother Henry, the Duke of York[2], was studying for the priesthood. Had Arthur died younger, it is possible the the succession would pass through the Duke of York, yet for now, the succession was safe. France and the Habsburgs looked on worryingly, because if Arthur continued his pro-Spanish stance, there could be very well a powerful Anglo-Spanish state which would disrupt the status quo of European affairs, always like a sword on a thin string...

And their fears were not unfounded. Arthur sent overtures to the regent Ferdinand for a possible marriage alliance by betrothing Ferdinand's grandson Miguel to Mary; however, Ferdinand waffled on the issue, considering his precarious situation after the Compromise of Burgos, where Juana was still the heir to Spain should Miguel die without issue. However, the Habsburgs would have more things to worry about; the Ottomans were effectively weakening Hungary, and a battle two decades later would make a house of cards collapse throughout Europe.

On the administrative side of things, Arthur was more lenient in terms of taxation, though it was still rather heavy by modern standards. The court life of 16th century England, inspired by the tales of the king's legendary namesake, flowered, which meant that England was not as easily left behind in the Renaissance. The innovations of the Cistercian monks were regarded with interest, though many of those were not adopted nationally until much later.

Yet all of this was the calm before the storm of the next two decades...

[1]Think Mary I of England, but born earlier and with a different father...
[2] OTL Henry VIII - note the irony.
​

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Oh dear God, I love the irony in Henry becoming a priest!

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Yes, it is very ironic...

Expect Francis I and Charles V still becoming rivals in this TL, but with a certain difference.

Also, do you see what my intentions with Miguel are?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Hmm. a stable Portugal- Spain would become a HUGe colonial empire. still I suspect there would be some rivalry in Africa between Portuguese and Castillan merchants, and Portuguese and Castillan settlers wouldn't settle on the same places.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Hmm. a stable Portugal- Spain would become a HUGe colonial empire. still I suspect there would be some rivalry in Africa between Portuguese and Castillan merchants, and Portuguese and Castillan settlers wouldn't settle on the same places.

There's a reason Philip II literally held the most colonial power by 1580. I'm actually wondering how the New World Gold would factor into this; in OTL and probably here too I can see it causing inflation in Europe. But Charles V won't have direct access to New World gold, so he's not exactly going to find easy funding for his misadventures.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

There's a reason Philip II literally held the most colonial power by 1580. I'm actually wondering how the New World Gold would factor into this; in OTL and probably here too I can see it causing inflation in Europe. But Charles V won't have direct access to New World gold, so he's not exactly going to find easy funding for his misadventures.

All that New World gold is going to screw up Spain's economy in the long run if they go to straight to the gold. I think a united Iberian union between Spain and Portugal would entail different colonization patterns. The Caribbean (at least in the beginning) would become a Spanish lake while the Portuguese in the Empire are going to concentrate mainly in their outposts in Africa and Asia (Brasil wasn't actually that important to begin with until later on).

 

[yourworstnightmare]

All that New World gold is going to screw up Spain's economy in the long run if they go to straight to the gold. I think a united Iberian union between Spain and Portugal would entail different colonization patterns. The Caribbean (at least in the beginning) would become a Spanish lake while the Portuguese in the Empire are going to concentrate mainly in their outposts in Africa and Asia (Brasil wasn't actually that important to begin with until later on).

Yes, but what they wanted was gold, all that other stuff was just something they came up with when they realized there isn't gold for everyone. And if you want functioning plantation: the Brazilian experience was very important for the development of the plantation economy. The Caribbean islands really just took after Brazil (which took after Sao Tomé and Madeira).

 

[SavoyTruffle]

The Colonial Game​

As Miguel came to power in Spain, he set forward a plan with regards to the administration of the country. He attempted to replicate the Portuguese model of trading post colonies[1], yet used Spanish manpower to secure them. The adventurer Hernan Cortes would become famed for holding Goa against a reclaiming Bijapur force, before he set on his own for the Americas to make his own fortune...[2]

Recognizing that even though stories of cities of gold could be true, Miguel realized that a large inflow of gold could cause inflation and weaken the Spanish (and later Iberian, upon Manuel I's death in 1521) kingdom's economy. Thus he promulgated a rule that conquistadors not be allowed to take more than a pound of gold per man, with varying degrees of enforcement.

On the marital front, Miguel surveyed the various exalted families from which he could find a suitable bride. He seemed to be favoring either Eleanor of Habsburg or Mary Tudor. Both were his first cousins; Eleanor being the firstborn of his aunt Juana with the Holy Roman Emperor Philip I, Mary being the firstborn of his aunt Catherine with the King of England Arthur. Eventually, recognizing the Anglo-Portuguese alliance (soon the Anglo-Iberian alliance), he settled on marrying Mary. They were wed (by proxy) in 1517, yet the two did not meet until the next year. Immediate consummation was advised against, yet Miguel knew that if he waited too long, his Habsburg cousins would ascend... though he still waited until the next year.

Dark clouds loomed over Europe in the 1520s as a monarch died in battle, a rival for the Imperial throne appeared, and the very foundations of belief would be shaken...

[1]More Portuguese influence in colonization.
[2]Might as well give a little wink to Sa'id/Ringo.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I can not wait for the next update! Short but very good!

 

[SavoyTruffle]

I'm actually asking for input about how to do the *Reformation. Luther was born way before the POD, yet he was young enough that butterflies could prevent him entering the monastic life. Any ideas?