Two little PODs equals FRANCE-AUSTRIA PERSIONAL UNION

Same as Austria not too long before the POD, there wasn't just -one- Duke of Bavaria at this time. The duke in question is Albert IV, Duke of Bayern-München. He wouldn't unify the Bavarias until 1503, before which I argue he is in no position to contest France-Burgundy over Austria. His marriage to Kunigunde was only possible through intrigue, and unless he can muster some marvelous anti-French coalition (which just didn't exist at the time, especially not if the French king inherits the sole rival to his power) within the HRE, it just isn't going to happen in his lifetime (Albert dies OTL in 1508, and his sons co-rule a 'united' Bavaria afterward---they are less likely to push their mother's claim than he is)

Let's not forget that Maximilian I doesn't die until 1519 anyway, negating a lot of these points anyway. Any contest over Austria will have to wait until his death, by which time the succession (by way of the son of Charles and Margaret) will be well-secured.



Not shaky; As the OP says---Philip is dead before Maximilian's OTL death in 1519, by which time Charles and Margaret have a son. The HRE is up for grabs, sure, but Charles' son does inherit Austria by way of her mother. Who contests his claim? In 1519 Bavaria is mired in sibling rivalry, Bohemia-Hungary and Poland Lithuania are busy, and France wins any war over the issue of Austria 'leaving' the HRE anyway, at least initially.

Like I said in my post above, France-Burgundy-Austria is likely united only briefly under the son of Charles and Margaret (if they only have one son, if not then Margaret's Austria-Burgundy likely returns to the HRE, with some splitting of the Lowlands that is more favorable to the French than OTL). Very likely that Austria and some of the Austrian Netherlands + Upper Burgundy returns to the HRE at some point afterward, albeit under a Lowland-born Valois Duke of Burgundy

Perhaps Max might still marry Anne of Brittany or Germaine de Foix and have heirs..
 
Perhaps Max might still marry Anne of Brittany or Germaine de Foix and have heirs..

I think if Charles VIII marries Margaret, he cannot contest Maxmilian's marriage to Anne. If Max then has a son by Anne then I think TTL Charles IX still inherits Burgundy but maybe the next-eldest gets Austria and Brittany? Probably a treaty or two to decide the matter, especially if Max manages to have more than one son by Anne.

Also there's the matter of Charles' ill-fated adventure in Italy. Might he ally with his father-in-law and enjoy greater successes?

For this entire scenario to work, something needs to happen to Anne of France, Charles' older sister, who was the one who arranged for Charles' marriage to Anne of Brittany in the first place. With her in the picture, I don't really see Charles marrying Margaret as planned in the first place.
 
I can't be the only one that wants this to be a time line. If someone does this and adds Bohemia and Hungary to the mix later on I would love it. Also this seem to be only way to get Holy Roman Empire France Union since Salic law is so strong in france.
 
You are wrong. The French will gain only all the Burgundian lands from thius match after Philip's death (Margaret is after her brother the heiress of her mother, but neither she or her aunt are really entitled to be heiress of the Habsburg heritage who was at that time had a male-only line of succession). If Maximilian will die without any male heir of his own his next heir will be his closest male relative in the male-line only, if he had none the next Emperor will be free to give that lands to anyone he wish. But if the King of France will not marry Anne of Brittany she will likely stay married with Maximilian and they will hopefully have heirs for their lands

That would only happen if the Valois give up Austria without a fight
 
Not shaky; As the OP says---Philip is dead before Maximilian's OTL death in 1519, by which time Charles and Margaret have a son. The HRE is up for grabs, sure, but Charles' son does inherit Austria by way of her mother. Who contests his claim? In 1519 Bavaria is mired in sibling rivalry, Bohemia-Hungary and Poland Lithuania are busy, and France wins any war over the issue of Austria 'leaving' the HRE anyway, at least initially.
Any claim through Margaret is through the female line; while that's not a problem for the Low Countries (for which it was standard), it certainly is for Austria.

They could try and claim it, but that would almost certainly require an army, and would likely arouse opposition from whoever is elected Emperor and whatever allies the new Emperor can muster (and the Italian Wars demonstrated that there are plenty of powers able and willing to contest Valois supremacy). If we wait until 1519 (and assume Maximillian and Ann have no surviving children, else the POD gets much less interesting), we certainly can't extrapolate OTL conditions; it seems guaranteed that the Emperor will have given some thought to the succession and put some effort into securing his chosen successor.
 
In OTL, the Imperial Election of 1519 was between Maximilian's grandson & the king of France. In TTL, the king of France is Maximilian's grandson. Who in the HRE could mount a challenge to TTL Charles IX of France?
 
In OTL, the Imperial Election of 1519 was between Maximilian's grandson & the king of France. In TTL, the king of France is Maximilian's grandson. Who in the HRE could mount a challenge to TTL Charles IX of France?

One possible candidate would be Frederick the Wise, the Elector of Saxony. Protector of Martin Luther, but himself a staunch Catholic. His income from the silver mines in the Ore Mountains made him financially independent, ie not dependent on Fugger loans. Childless and unmarried, which might actually be a plus in the eyes of the other electors.
 
One possible candidate would be Frederick the Wise, the Elector of Saxony. Protector of Martin Luther, but himself a staunch Catholic. His income from the silver mines in the Ore Mountains made him financially independent, ie not dependent on Fugger loans. Childless and unmarried, which might actually be a plus in the eyes of the other electors.

Didn't the electors try to make him a compromise candidate in 1519, but he said no?
 
The idea of a balance of power is already starting to be formulated in this age, and a more geographically dense (and more populous to boot) hegemon than OTL Charles V is just waiting to be ganged up on.

the Election of 1519 would most definitely be contested by Bohemia-Hungary, if not England, or even a coalition lead by Fred. of Saxony.

IMO the lot would be worse for France-Burgundy if they won the election since then they would be at the forefront against the protestants. In exchange of dominance over Italy, France's tie with the Vatican would surely be closer and once radical reformation comes, it will hit much much harder and in the very heart of France.

Northern Netherlands with English help, Switzerland, Alsace, would form a sort of Calvinist (or what ever sort of double predestination theology ITL) Union. And the coming wars of religion will coincide with the domestic 'French Wars of Religion', but will surely involve the entirety of Europe in a bid to unseat Valois power. The devastation of the original 30YW will most likely be amplified and transported to France.

While ITL England or some Protestant Baltic union most likely emerge in France's stead post ITL 30YW as the dominant power in the era. Thus I posit losing the Netherlands and HRE crown to the Habsburgs was a blessing in disguise for France, as it helped them to dodge the two largest powder kegs in Europe (Reformation and Dutch revolt) while allowing them to safely consolidate their holdings into the first proto Nation-State.
 
One possible candidate would be Frederick the Wise, the Elector of Saxony. Protector of Martin Luther, but himself a staunch Catholic. His income from the silver mines in the Ore Mountains made him financially independent, ie not dependent on Fugger loans. Childless and unmarried, which might actually be a plus in the eyes of the other electors.

He's financially independent but can he bribe the electors like the king of France can. A French king who's also maxs heir?
 
The idea of a balance of power is already starting to be formulated in this age, and a more geographically dense (and more populous to boot) hegemon than OTL Charles V is just waiting to be ganged up on.

the Election of 1519 would most definitely be contested by Bohemia-Hungary, if not England, or even a coalition lead by Fred. of Saxony.

IMO the lot would be worse for France-Burgundy if they won the election since then they would be at the forefront against the protestants. In exchange of dominance over Italy, France's tie with the Vatican would surely be closer and once radical reformation comes, it will hit much much harder and in the very heart of France.

Northern Netherlands with English help, Switzerland, Alsace, would form a sort of Calvinist (or what ever sort of double predestination theology ITL) Union. And the coming wars of religion will coincide with the domestic 'French Wars of Religion', but will surely involve the entirety of Europe in a bid to unseat Valois power. The devastation of the original 30YW will most likely be amplified and transported to France.

While ITL England or some Protestant Baltic union most likely emerge in France's stead post ITL 30YW as the dominant power in the era. Thus I posit losing the Netherlands and HRE crown to the Habsburgs was a blessing in disguise for France, as it helped them to dodge the two largest powder kegs in Europe (Reformation and Dutch revolt) while allowing them to safely consolidate their holdings into the first proto Nation-State.
Did the French really ever have a shot at the imprial crown in otl against the Hapsburg?
 
Did the French really ever have a shot at the imprial crown in otl against the Hapsburg?

From what I can tell yes. Charles V was a native french speaker & was viewed as equally foreign as Francis to the electors. I've heard from someone else on this forum that the reason Francis lost was because he bribed them upfront.
 
I think who in any open Imperial Election bribing the Electors was the "standard procedure". Charles and Francis (and Henry VIII of England and the elector Fredrick III of Saxony) both try to buy votes but Karl in the end win the elections because the had more money (the Fuggers gave him a lot of money for the election) and had already the vote of Bohemia because their King was his brother-in-law
 
I think who in any open Imperial Election bribing the Electors was the "standard procedure". Charles and Francis (and Henry VIII of England and the elector Fredrick III of Saxony) both try to buy votes but Karl in the end win the elections because the had more money (the Fuggers gave him a lot of money for the election) and had already the vote of Bohemia because their King was his brother-in-law

Since this theoretical grandson is maxs heir wouldn't he have access to fugger loans?
 
Since this theoretical grandson is maxs heir wouldn't he have access to fugger loans?

I would think so. Also, if France is enemies with the Otttomans, they could ally with Bohemia-Hungary & the TTL king of Hungary could vote for his Valois brother-in-law.
 
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