Two Irelands In Rugby...

As you may or may not know I'm a bit of a rugby fan and something came to me watching the Six Nations, what if Ireland had two rugby national rugby teams, representing the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland?

Of course the Irish national side predates the troubles/civil war and is one of the few institutions that remained representitive of ALL of Ireland afterwards with players from both North and South of the border.

Of course this has lead to all manner of fun trivia as a fan of the game, such as them playing a third national anthem before matches (Ireland Calls) instead of the anthems of N.Ireland and the Rep Ireland. Other events include the infamous Ireland vs England game of 1972 (England was the only team that would play them at the height of the troubles) and England vs Ireland game at Croke Park in 2007 that caused problems (The stadium was the site of a infamous British Army massacre of Irish civilians).

But I cant seem to find much info on how/why the Irelands field a united team after the civil war and during troubles and would love to know was a rugby split ever possible?
 
As you may or may not know I'm a bit of a rugby fan and something came to me watching the Six Nations, what if Ireland had two rugby national rugby teams, representing the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland?

Of course the Irish national side predates the troubles/civil war and is one of the few institutions that remained representitive of ALL of Ireland afterwards with players from both North and South of the border.

Of course this has lead to all manner of fun trivia as a fan of the game, such as them playing a third national anthem before matches (Ireland Calls) instead of the anthems of N.Ireland and the Rep Ireland. Other events include the infamous Ireland vs England game of 1972 (England was the only team that would play them at the height of the troubles) and England vs Ireland game at Croke Park in 2007 that caused problems (The stadium was the site of a infamous British Army massacre of Irish civilians).

But I cant seem to find much info on how/why the Irelands field a united team after the civil war and during troubles and would love to know was a rugby split ever possible?
Seem to remember reading that Eamon de Valera was a rugby union player/supporter, and advocated an All-Ireland team, influencing the decision. Although many leading figures within Irish politics have played rugby union, it is still generally regarded as a Garrison Game by many, hence the issues around playing at Croke Park, where such sports are banned. Except rugby league which is not considered a Garrison Game due to it being banned in the British Armed Forces until the 1990s.
 
The split in football was down to a lot of other factors, the Irish Football Association was founded in 1880 in Belfast, ironically the main impetus behind the association's founding came from Cliftonville FC who are from a Nationalist part of North Belfast. The association came to be dominated by people of Unionist outlook, football was largely confined to Ulster at first with the affiliated Leinster F.A. being founded in 1892, however the Southern clubs, who were largely run by Nationalists, felt that the IFA wasn't doing enough to promote the game outside of Ulster. Football in the South also suffered from the perception of being a "foreign game" and the GAA banned it's members from competing in it, a ban that remained until recent times.

The trigger for the split came about during the War of Independence, the security situation had prevented the Irish League from being resumed after WW1 with only the Irish Cup continuing, in 1921, Glentoran FC of Belfast and Shelbourne of Dublin were drawn to play in the semi-final, the game was drawn and needed a replay which under the rules should have been in Dublin. However the IFA ruled that due to the security situation it should be played in Belfast, this was the last straw for the Leinster FA which withdrew from the IFA and became the nucleus for the eventual Football Association of Ireland. There were a number of attempts at reconciliation in the following years but they failed to find a solution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Association_of_Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Football_Association

I suppose the reason why the IRFU didn't split was because it was a Dublin based organisation and the tensions that occurred in the pre-partition IFA didn't happen. Personally I think it's sad that football split while rugby, cricket and hockey managed to stay united, at several times Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland have each been sorely lacking players in a key position who could have helped them reach World Cup finals and a suitable player has been playing for the other team! I don't think there's any chance of a reconciliation short of a United Ireland which isn't likely in the foreseeable future for various reasons. As for how rugby would have developed had it split, I imagine the Republic's team would be much as it is now but the NI team would be at the level of Italy or the other weaker European teams.

Just a final thought on the football, in 1982 Northern Ireland shocked Spain in their own World Cup and reached the second group stage with what was easily their strongest ever side. However the squad contained relatively few world class players and they were clearly exhausted by their efforts in the first stage and in the end were well beaten by France. If the split had never happened then this is the team that Ireland could have fielded;

Jennings

Hughton
O'Leary
Lawrenson
Donaghy

O'Neill
McIlroy
McCreery
Brady

Stapleton
Armstrong

I wonder how well that team could have done in that tournament?! :D
 
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Having thought about this a bit more I doubt that a single Irish football team could have survived partition to the present day. The big difference between football and rugby is that football supporters are working class while rugby fans tend to be middle class. Sectarianism tends to be strongest among the working class, the more prosperous parts of NI have always tended to be more integrated with any sectarianism being kept private. The people who go to watch rugby at Ravenhill or Landsdowne Road tend to be the least likely to join paramilitaries or be throwing Molotov Cocktails at "the other lot," the people who do tend to be football fans.

So even if the IFA split hadn't happened and all Ireland football had survived partition, then unless events are significantly different then I can see football being plagued with sectarian riots at games between teams with Protestant and Catholic supporters. This would have affected the national team which could have been the only team in the world that had to have it's own fans segregated. Obviously the Old Firm in Glasgow is a mainly sectarian rivalry but Rangers and Celtic fans predominantly see themselves as Scottish/British whereas Glentoran and Shelbourne fans see themselves as either British or Irish and the divisions would have been far more bitter.

I think it would only have been a matter of time before some incident caused a split and two associations came into being. It's good to speculate as to how football could have stayed unified but unless there's a markedly different TL then I don't see how.
 
I know this is going off on a tangent a wee bit...but what about an Ulster-Scottish team instead?
 
The 2003 encounter with Argentina in the RWC was the first time ever Ireland took to the field without an Ulster player and we won and qualified for what has become the exception for us for the QFs.
When I was a young boy/teenager in the 70s and 80s Ulster would have been by far the strongest Rugby province here, however the rugby UDI which was in the offing at the start of the troubles would have been catostrophic for this magnificent game on this island! Ulster is probably 3 in the pecking order of the 4 provinces on the island at the moment!
I asked a Southern Sinn Fein supporting friend of mine, who knows that rugby is maybe a 95% protestant supported game in Ulster, if he would support them against foreign opposition in the Heineken Cup final, and he said OFF COURSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I certainly would also, maybe even against Leinster with their elitist old rugby schools! I'm a Connacht man by the way!
Also where would UDI have left one of our current greats Ulster born (Monaghan) Tommy Bowe!
My understanding is that Ulster greats such as Willie John MacBride vehemently argued against UDI! And fair play to them, Thank God the game survived here intact thanks to some fantastic rugby people in Ulster!
And no thanks to the SCOTS and WELSH who refused to play us here when a grand slam was on its way at the start of the troubles. England to their eternal credit did play us here during that difficult time. Their captain in his post match dinner speech wonderfully said - We might not be any good, but at least we turn up! Fair play.
Also, it was wonderful in the extreme, to see arguably the greatest Irish rugby player of all time ( and that's some accolade ), Jackie Kyle ( hero of the only previous grand slam winners 1948) at the winning grand slam game V Wales 2009. He projects himself so well and is definitely a superb person aside from his great God given exceptional rugby talent, and it made me think of what might have been, had people on this Island been as one and told that we were the same rather than taught by lunatics that we were different from each other ( catholic v Protestant ). Down south the loss of our protestant population was one of the greatest kicks in the collective nads we could possibly have received without a doubt!
 
So from what I can tell you either have to have a more working class participation in rugby union so more demand for a split exists Union, not being viewed as a "garrison game" perhaps or something VERY VERY bad happens when the possibility of a split was first discussed leading to bad blood between the Ulster rugby community and the rest of Ireland.

Or the ASB option football somehow stays unified but a series of events/clashes at matches cause a division of all Irish sports for "security" reasons.
 
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