With the Belgian royal family killed, how would the people react? Would Belgium become a republic? Would they demand revenge for their deaths? The thought of dead royals shudders me as I read through it.
Twilight of the Valkyries: A 20 July Plot TL (Redux)
- Thread starter LumineVonReuental
- Start date
Before 1991 Belgium has a Salic Law Succession Order so the new King would be Prince Charles, who was in England, served in Allied forces and was designated as Prince Regent by the Government-in-Exile.
Really enjoying this TL. I’m wondering about the various SS units forming in Hungry during the summer and fall of 44. Will they be formed as part of the Heer or given to the Hungarian army?
I must say I'm not sure, (very simplistic) research indicates the two Hungarian SS divisions were not finished until very late in the year and it does bring up the question on where they started to be formed (would have to give a closer look). Still, instinct tells me integration into the Hungarian Army is the likely road, Guderian would not have much of an incentive to use foreign-born formations after witnessing the fanaticism of the foreign-born SS units at the Obersalzberg, Prague and - particularly - the Netherlands.
Also, it will take a while before Part II ("Alberich") manages to start due to RL pressure, but in the meantime I'll be making rudimentary Wikiboxes for the TL.
With the idiots and fanatics all gone, time for the best and brightest of the Wehrmacht and Germany to put themselves to the test. Can they get a negotiated peace with the Western allies? Can they stop the soviet horde from overrunning the fatherland? Coming soon in part 2!
I think the best they can get is a surrender to soley the Western Allies to try and convince them to try and hold off the Soviets (however unlikely that is).
AlexG
Banned
At this point look for Germany to collapse by December 1944. The red army is gonna carve through them like cake and things are even worse in the west without the SS divisions. Morale is going to precipitously low. And what kept the ordinary soldier fighting was belief in a final victory because of their confidence in Hitler and each other.
They already know that generals and the high command failed them in WWI and now it looks like another 'stab in the back' has taken place.
In this timeline look for Market Garden to be a stunning success even with all the mistakes made on the allied side. Before equipment, material, food, etc and army needs to have the spirit to fight. An entire paratroop army dropping on them after what happened after D-Day and Hitler's assassination, expect surrenders enmasse. Especially without SS political units to bolster morale and fear of reprisal.
They already know that generals and the high command failed them in WWI and now it looks like another 'stab in the back' has taken place.
In this timeline look for Market Garden to be a stunning success even with all the mistakes made on the allied side. Before equipment, material, food, etc and army needs to have the spirit to fight. An entire paratroop army dropping on them after what happened after D-Day and Hitler's assassination, expect surrenders enmasse. Especially without SS political units to bolster morale and fear of reprisal.
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Except the Western allies saw Prussian militarism as the enemy, too. And rightly so. Hitler and most of his inner circle are gone, but the new Germany is led by people like Speer, Guderian, Gestapo-Müller and various Wehrmacht generals who aided and abetted Hitler - and thus also the Nazi atrocities.
Speer's 'armaments miracle' was built on slave labour supplied by the SS and he deserved to have a date with the hangman's noose at Nuremberg, Müller was one of the executors of the Holocaust. Rundstedt, Guderian et al aren't 'honourable soldiers who just happen to be serving an evil madman'. Papen is a reactionary who gave Hitler the keys to the chancellery because he could not handle being dismissed and deluded himself into thinking that he was a master puppeteer.
Sure, the West does not like the Soviets or Communism in general, but assuming they'd suddenly pull a 180 and embrace the somewhat less Nazi Nazi Germany is rather unrealistic. Nor should they. Post-Hitler Nazi Germany is still a nation that needs to be crushed, occupied and denazified.
It really does have all the ingredients of another 'stab in the back' myth, unfortunately.
Speer's 'armaments miracle' was built on slave labour supplied by the SS and he deserved to have a date with the hangman's noose at Nuremberg, Müller was one of the executors of the Holocaust. Rundstedt, Guderian et al aren't 'honourable soldiers who just happen to be serving an evil madman'. Papen is a reactionary who gave Hitler the keys to the chancellery because he could not handle being dismissed and deluded himself into thinking that he was a master puppeteer.
Sure, the West does not like the Soviets or Communism in general, but assuming they'd suddenly pull a 180 and embrace the somewhat less Nazi Nazi Germany is rather unrealistic. Nor should they. Post-Hitler Nazi Germany is still a nation that needs to be crushed, occupied and denazified.
It really does have all the ingredients of another 'stab in the back' myth, unfortunately.
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AlexG
Banned
Exactly. I expect the occupation and De-Nazification to be harder on occupier and occupied ITL.
The complete shock and dismay at the total and unequivocal destruction of Nazi Germany and the suicide of Adolf Hitler along with the rest of the cabal, in addition to the aforementioned parties being blamed for the holocaust did much to destroy any meaningful support for National Socialism in Germany.
Here, each of those factors is worsened by the premature death of Hitler. Look for the holocaust to be blamed on the Generals, or hell for some to argue that but for the incompleteness of it that Germany would have prevailed without internal enemies.
This could be milder version of what Japan would go through if the Emperor chose not to denounce the military and fought on.
The complete shock and dismay at the total and unequivocal destruction of Nazi Germany and the suicide of Adolf Hitler along with the rest of the cabal, in addition to the aforementioned parties being blamed for the holocaust did much to destroy any meaningful support for National Socialism in Germany.
Here, each of those factors is worsened by the premature death of Hitler. Look for the holocaust to be blamed on the Generals, or hell for some to argue that but for the incompleteness of it that Germany would have prevailed without internal enemies.
This could be milder version of what Japan would go through if the Emperor chose not to denounce the military and fought on.
Just finished reading, this TL along Fear, Loathing and Gumbo are the ones keeping my eye over here.
Reading this TL is fascinating, the level of research is truly amazing. Superb quality.
I had also a question, where could I find information about the relations between the prominent Nazis?
Like, what Goebbels thought about Himmler or Speer about Bormann and stuff like that.
I'm working on a Nazi Cold War TL, but I wanted to know more about that aspect to deal properly with how would a succession of Hitler would be.
Anyways, amazing work here!
You have a lot of flexibility there. In OTL, Hitler changed his mind about a lot of the high command during the last 10 days.
" What I should have done... was liquidate all the high-ranking officers, as Stalin did!
"Fegelein! Fegelein! Fegelein!"
"Himmler... Of all people, Himmler! The truest of the true... This is the worst betrayal of all! Göring, yeah; he was always corrupt, of course. Speer, yeah: an idealistic, unpredictable artist. All the others, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah!"
With a Nazi Cold War, the POD is well before those events. So unlike OTL where Hitler appoints Donitz before eating a bullet, others in the leadership are still in good standing. As his health declines he can choose any successor and events of your choosing will influence Hitler's decision.
I wonder if Oliver Hirschbiegel would even be born and end up a director to make a movie about Hitler's last 10 days before July 20.
Looked up his date of birth. Damn, he was born more than a decade after POD!
Dang, and we'll get no Bruno Ganz as Hitler. While Ganz was the best, Sir Anthony Hopkins and Gunther Meisner have a special place in my heart as well.
Yes, but unlike 1918-1919, the Allied Powers will be occupying every square foot of the country, and imposing new political regime(s) to control the narrative. I just don't think we can overstate that.
The Dolchstoßlegende acquired much of its potency from the fact that the Allies in 1918 never conquered Germany: Never marched into Berlin. This set the Great War apart from the outcomes in 1806, 1814, 1815, 1871, and, yes, 1945 (or in this ATL's case, more likely 1944). The Heer, on the other hand, could hold *its* defiant heroes parades down the Unter den Linden, because the Allies weren't there to stop it.
Anyway, once the evidence of the camps comes to light, Hitler's remaining support is going to struggle to build an alternative narrative.
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