Twilight of the Red Tsar

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Napoleon IV, Nov 1, 2015.

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  1. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    He didn't have much of one OTL, the only thing he was is a Louisiana State Representative.
     
  2. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    I would assume that the Jews might well become anti-Socialist in TTL. The Nazis were National Socialists and the Communists were International Socialists and both had committed anti-Jewish atrocities that would make the Tsarists blush. With Nazism=Communism in TTL the Jews could become much more economically conservative and stalwart anti-Socialists. After all the two biggest anti-Jewish governments in TTL's history claim to be Socialists.
     
  3. Arthur Marston Well-Known Member

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    I know this argument is BS, but I suspect that "ThE nAZiS wErE lEfT-wInG" arguments will be even more popular than IOTL.
     
  4. KazuyaProta Well-Known Member

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    Their conceptions of right and left would be fairly different in general. I mean, Nixon didn't pass Civil Rights on this TL? Add the eventual many minority inmigrant groups with grudges to Communism and the existence of Ethnic Hate groups on the Left.
    The Chat section of the AH.com of such a world would be...interesting
     
  5. htgriffin Member

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    I figure opposition to Blood&Soil nationalism will remain a very major thing for the Jewish Diaspora, so odds are Left Of Center (although more syndicalist ITTL) will remain the more common inclination.
     
  6. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    It depends, Blood & Soil nationalism is more socially right of center not economically. Libertarians among others are hardly Blood & Soil while both Mao and Stalin were pretty close to being Blood and Soil nationalists. However, syndicalist might well be the way it goes.

    That said both the Nazis and the Communists were to the left economically, Nazi Germany intervened in the market around as much as Stalinist Russia. It had four instead of five year plans, dictated wages, dictated prices and most of the economy revolved around government purchases even before the war. If you read Hitler's speeches he raged against capitalists much like Lenin and Stalin did.
     
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  7. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how the growth rate could possibly be positive for the USSR in this TL. Between the Sino-Soviet War and Stalin purging anyone who looks at him the wrong, or whom he thinks will look at him the wrong way in the future, or looks at him the right way but he is in a bad mood I think -6% or less more likely than +3% growth.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  8. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't see how many Third World countries could even think of going Socialist. You risk getting nuked by the Americans if you do (or at least it would seem that you might be risking that) or being nuked by the Russians if you aren't sufficiently Socialist. The replacement is likely syndicalism as that would be less worrying to Washington and seems to be the replacement in Europe. Labor unions are still strong in the US in OTL at this point and may well be stronger in TTL.
     
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  9. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    Compared to what is left in Soviet leadership Brezhnev is the epitome of competence, incorruptibility and compassion.
     
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  10. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Well, considering how the Nazis and the Communists were already pretty similar OTL, that certainly is true. Both groups were guilty of invasion, genocide, and mass murder before the TTL events.

    So, to the average person who doesn't know history, there is a clear correlation between the two groups.



    Well..

    TTL Ideologies have been horrible for Jews. OTL Communism was supposed to bring about true equality, which is why many Jews joined the Soviets.

    Remember, the USSR still has a shit ton of resources.
     
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  11. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    The Soviet economy is a train wreck. I doubt they have enough money to fund anything but the smallest revolution. At this moment the situation is so unstable at home their first and last instinct is to save themselves and not worry about abroad.

    Expect even the late 1960's to be a hell of a lot more conservative. Everyone is more on edge. Stalin lasted until the late 1950's and quite likely exceeded Hitler in evil. The world is more tumultuous and the Red Scare was deeper and longer. This makes people more cautious.
     
  12. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, it would have to be an epic. I think it would win Academy Awards if done right.
     
  13. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    A ton of resources doesn't do much good if all the people who know how to put it to good use have all been shot.
     
  14. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Well, that's why sanctions didn't work immediately. It was only when, as you said, that there was mismanagement and no America to send grain that the system came crashing down.
     
  15. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    Particularly since a large part of the "native" armies joined the people.
     
  16. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    Eastern Europe is in such a mess TTL it has no way to go but up. BTW, the Fall of Communism was always going to be messy. You can't make big reforms without pain, the world doesn't work that way. Trying to do it gently would just drag it out forever and Eastern Europe would probably still reforming today. Believe me it could have been far, far worse.
     
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  17. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if we continued that during the Cold War. It seems to fit the Eastern Bloc to a T.
     
  18. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    Despite myths Russia was already industrialized in 1917, not to US or German standards but Mexico they were not. China would be a better example .
     
  19. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    It should be worse, much , much worse than OTL 70's. At least OTL 70's didn't have a complete madman in charge of the USSR that has descended into massive violence all across Eastern Europe.
     
  20. Johnrankins Well-Known Member

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    I'm surprised North Vietnam lasted this long. It has no Great Power patrons as I doubt the USSR was in any shape to give them any aid in at least the last five years and an even more anti-Communist US is likely to back South Vietnam to the hilt which may or may not include troops.
     
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