Twilight of the Red Tsar

[Joshua Ben Ari]

What does that mean for the future of Israel?

That the existence of a Jewish state is required to protect the Jews of the world. Within only a few years of the end of the Nazi Holocaust, the Jews of Europe have endured yet another Shoah and been senselessly murdered in the camps. A Jewish state will be seen as an absolute necessity. Israel will do everything they can to ensure that the Jews of the world are protected from yet another Hitler or another Stalin.

edit: grammar

 

[thekingsguard]

I wager Stalin's half-Jewish grandkids may end up in similar positions as that one nephew of Hitler who served in the Pacific in the US Navy, with their kids making some kind of pact to make sure the Stalin bloodline is dead for good.

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

I wager Stalin's half-Jewish grandkids may end up in similar positions as that one nephew of Hitler who served in the Pacific in the US Navy, with their kids making some kind of pact to make sure the Stalin bloodline is dead for good.

They may end up fighting against Soviet forces, but there was no real official pact to end the Hitler bloodline which makes me less sure there will be one to end the Stalin one.

 

[thekingsguard]

They may end up fighting against Soviet forces, but there was no real official pact to end the Hitler bloodline which makes me less sure there will be one to end the Stalin one.

No official pact, but still the odd coincidence that none of them ever married (though one was engaged to a Jewish woman before she found out the old family name) or had kids.

Something that the two last Austrian nephews ALSO seemed to never do - if there was never a pact, then its a hell of a coincidence that of Hitler's five last remote relatives, four never even entertained the idea of marriage or children, and the fifth gave up after the family history caused his last relationship to end in heartbreak.

 

[Lalli]

Agree with previous. I think that it is very possible that Stalin's remaining grandchildren decide end his lineage for good. They have themselves seen and even suffered about their grandfather's cruelty.

 

[thekingsguard]

Agree with previous. I think that it is very possible that Stalin's remaining grandchildren decide end his lineage for good. They have themselves seen and even suffered about their grandfather's cruelty.

Plus, there's the likelihood of revenge squads making the choice for them - in OTL, a good chunk of Hitler's relatives were captured tortured and killed by the Soviets either during the war or soon after it.

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

No official pact, but still the odd coincidence that none of them ever married (though one was engaged to a Jewish woman before she found out the old family name) or had kids.

Oh no... I can't imagine the absolute horror that woman would have felt, finding out that the man she was engaged to was related to that monster...

Something that the two last Austrian nephews ALSO seemed to never do - if there was never a pact, then its a hell of a coincidence that of Hitler's five last remote relatives, four never even entertained the idea of marriage or children, and the fifth gave up after the family history caused his last relationship to end in heartbreak.

That's true. It may not have been an official pact, but there seems to have been something binding which caused them to never marry or have children.

 

[Lalli]

Plus, there's the likelihood of revenge squads making the choice for them - in OTL, a good chunk of Hitler's relatives were captured tortured and killed by the Soviets either during the war or soon after it.

During extremely chaotic and confusing Soviet Civil War them would have easy take false identitet and escape froum the collapsing country. Remember that only few people in the world know what they look like. Ironically Stalin made them big favor when he erased all of their photos and other information. Of course it is possible that some revenge squad find someone of them and then kill that unlucky person. Then police just would be damned confused when they would find out that killed person is not that who claim being. We might have some intresting crime mysteries.

 

[thekingsguard]

Oh no... I can't imagine the absolute horror that woman would have felt, finding out that the man she was engaged to was related to that monster...

In a way, I feel bad for the Stuart-Houston son in question too - by his own account, she was the love of his life, her breaking it off left him so heartbroken he's literally never dated another woman. It's tragic in a way... no matter what good his father (a WWII hero awarded the Purple Heart) or he and his brothers (all doctors or social workers in great standing with the community) it's a literal case where the sins of the father (or uncle in this case) are literally a shame carried to the children, and the children's children.

Had things worked out between the two, and they started a family, there is one almost sublime irony, one almost MORE fitting than the entire Hitler bloodline dying out... the only descendants that Adolf Hitler would ever have from that point on would have been born and raised Jewish.

That's true. It may not have been an official pact, but there seems to have been something binding which caused them to never marry or have children.

I mean... I get it. By all accounts, the last five of the Hitler bloodline are decent men today, kind men, but there is a point where no good you can ever do will EVER erase the sins of the father. Would you ever wish that burden upon a child?

During extremely chaotic and confusing Soviet Civil War them would have easy take false identitet and escape froum the collapsing country. Remember that only few people in the world know what they look like. Ironically Stalin made them big favor when he erased all of their photos and other information. Of course it is possible that some revenge squad find someone of them and then kill that unlucky person. Then police just would be damned confused when they would find out that killed person is not that who claim being. We might have some intresting crime mysteries.

I expect the OTL Nazi hunters will be adding lots of Soviets to their quarry...

How's this for a twist on the Boys from Brazil ITTL: not only is Mengele alive and working on clones in Brazil, but he has the aid of some exiled Soviet scientists, their mission, to splice the genes of Hitler and Stalin, and seed the clones throughout the world, with the aim one of them will grow to the perfect strongman leader.

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

In a way, I feel bad for the Stuart-Houston son in question too - by his own account, she was the love of his life, her breaking it off left him so heartbroken he's literally never dated another woman. It's tragic in a way... no matter what good his father (a WWII hero awarded the Purple Heart) or he and his brothers (all doctors or social workers in great standing with the community) it's a literal case where the sins of the father (or uncle in this case) are literally a shame carried to the children, and the children's children.

Had things worked out between the two, and they started a family, there is one almost sublime irony, one almost MORE fitting than the entire Hitler bloodline dying out... the only descendants that Adolf Hitler would ever have from that point on would have been born and raised Jewish.

I've been looking at news that one of them was engaged to a Jewish woman. This is one of those things where it doesn't matter what good he may have done, the fact that his father fought against his uncle, it's that the legacy of who he was related to and the utter trauma that person inflicted on the Jewish community just overrides everything.

It would have been ironic, but those kids would have had such trauma knowing who they were related to.

I mean... I get it. By all accounts, the last five of the Hitler bloodline are decent men today, kind men, but there is a point where no good you can ever do will EVER erase the sins of the father. Would you ever wish that burden upon a child?

If there was a pact, I don't blame them for making it.

I expect the OTL Nazi hunters will be adding lots of Soviets to their quarry...

How's this for a twist on the Boys from Brazil ITTL: not only is Mengele alive and working on clones in Brazil, but he has the aid of some exiled Soviet scientists, their mission, to splice the genes of Hitler and Stalin, and seed the clones throughout the world, with the aim one of them will grow to the perfect strongman leader.

I could see that. And that would be an absolutely horrifying, terrifying world to explore and would work well in the post-Soviet Holocaust world.

 

[Ismaili777]

A shot from the Anglo American comedy film, “The Butcher of Eurasia.” Notably mocks Stalin’s latter demented phase. A rant scene shows him drinking copious amounts of Vodka while ranting about a supposed “Sino Zionist Baltic” plot to oust the revolution, and notably slurs at Estonian and Latvians. Famous for its unending violence and gore, it was praised as an “accurate depiction of Marxist terror.” The screening had to be guarded by security in case of attacks by National Bolshevik gangs.

In this shot, he is laughing sadistically while drunk after reading details of Chinese cities being “slippery with human fat.”

 

[pattontank12]

Wonder what Macau and Hong Kong are like at this point and what'll happen to them long term?

 

[Bookmark1995]

A shot from the Anglo American comedy film, “The Butcher of Eurasia.” Notably mocks Stalin’s latter demented phase. A rant scene shows him drinking copious amounts of Vodka while ranting about a supposed “Sino Zionist Baltic” plot to oust the revolution, and notably slurs at Estonian and Latvians. Famous for its unending violence and gore, it was praised as an “accurate depiction of Marxist terror.” The screening had to be guarded by security in case of attacks by National Bolshevik gangs.
View attachment 472845
In this shot, he is laughing sadistically while drunk after reading details of Chinese cities being “slippery with human fat.”

So is this, like, a Great Dictator style movie with less gore?

Wonder what Macau and Hong Kong are like at this point and what'll happen to them long term?

If China is headed toward both economic recovery and democratization, I imagine they'll be a handover, albeit one with less tension than OTL.

 

[Ismaili777]

Parade in Kiev honoring the revived Ukrainian Insurgent Army veterans during the Second Russian Revolution.

 

[Ismaili777]

@Bookmark1995
Oh it has plenty of gore, featuring one scene when a man gets sodomized with an iron rod, but it is more a mockery of despotism. Stalin isn’t shown as a crazed madman (like hitler is portrayed and indeed is) but rather as a brutal tyrant who views ethnic cleansing as simple as filing accountant papers and who is unmoved on reports of the sheer brutality and even finds joy in it. While hitler was a evil bastard, he didn’t leave his own country necessarily impossible to govern after his death, whereas this TLs Stalin fucked Russia up beyond repair, and treated the Soviet Union like Leopold II treated the Congo; as in his private enterprise. So Stalin movies focus less on megalomania, but more paranoia and sadism, and his ruling clique is basically portrayed as a ultra powerful mafia.
In my head canon is this movie Stalin occasional rambles about class theory to retain a pretense of Marxism, but next thing you know cracks a joke about the second holocaust or the mess in China, and brags about how it benefits him.

 

[ghappy1000]

Would the Soviet cruiser Sverdlov be sent to represent Queen Elizabeth's 1953 coronation in this timeline?

 

[Bookmark1995]

@Bookmark1995
Oh it has plenty of gore, featuring one scene when a man gets sodomized with an iron rod, but it is more a mockery of despotism. Stalin isn’t shown as a crazed madman (like hitler is portrayed and indeed is) but rather as a brutal tyrant who views ethnic cleansing as simple as filing accountant papers and who is unmoved on reports of the sheer brutality and even finds joy in it. While hitler was a evil bastard, he didn’t leave his own country necessarily impossible to govern after his death, whereas this TLs Stalin fucked Russia up beyond repair, and treated the Soviet Union like Leopold II treated the Congo; as in his private enterprise. So Stalin movies focus less on megalomania, but more paranoia and sadism, and his ruling clique is basically portrayed as a ultra powerful mafia.
In my head canon is this movie Stalin occasional rambles about class theory to retain a pretense of Marxism, but next thing you know cracks a joke about the second holocaust or the mess in China, and brags about how it benefits him.

Let's not forget his paradoxical admiration of Ivan the Terrible. Like good ol'Ivan, Stalin left behind a weakened Russia that would collapse into a Time of Troubles shortly after his death.

Truth is, I think of Stalin as a manchild: he is so sensitive, he sent someone to a Gulag for merely suggesting he shouldn't work so hard. It's like a child throwing a fit because his parents suggested he should wear a coat.

 

[Bbone91]

Let's not forget his paradoxical admiration of Ivan the Terrible. Like good ol'Ivan, Stalin left behind a weakened Russia that would collapse into a Time of Troubles shortly after his death.

Truth is, I think of Stalin as a manchild: he is so sensitive, he sent someone to a Gulag for merely suggesting he shouldn't work so hard. It's like a child throwing a fit because his parents suggested he should wear a coat.

And, unlike a child, there was no one to discipline him when his tantrums threatened to destroy everything he created.

 

[Lalli]

Truth is, I think of Stalin as a manchild: he is so sensitive, he sent someone to a Gulag for merely suggesting he shouldn't work so hard. It's like a child throwing a fit because his parents suggested he should wear a coat.

Stalin just was effectively psychopat. He managed make himself absolute ruler which all Russians afraided and obeyed. Just wondering what are views of psychologs about Stalin's mind. Hitler's health was speculated much so I guess that there will be much of speculation about Stalin's health, even more than in OTL.

 

[Bookmark1995]

And, unlike a child, there was no one to discipline him when his tantrums threatened to destroy everything he created.

It seems to me that a lot of dictators have the mentality of spoiled children.

In The Last King of Scotland, which is about Idi Amin and his madness, James McAvoy's character straight up calls Amin a child.

Granted, some dictators are often products of a screwed up environment. Tito ruled over the Balkans, Chiang Kai Shek ruled over Warlord China, two environments that require a person to be harsh to survive. At the Soviet government, as created by Lenin, was one that would lead to gangster style rule. But Stalin went well beyond what he position required, murdering people for the most stupid reasons.

Stalin just was effectively psychopat. He managed make himself absolute ruler which all Russians afraided and obeyed. Just wondering what are views of psychologs about Stalin's mind. Hitler's health was speculated much so I guess that there will be much of speculation about Stalin's health, even more than in OTL.

A lot of it is also physiology.

Hitler's doctor basically gave him meth, which explains a lot.

Stalin's smoking gave him thrombosis, which may have damaged his brain and exacerbated his worst traits.