Twilight of the Red Tsar

[KazuyaProta]

To be fair, they can't just say "it was normal back then" there? I mean, ITTL Kaiserboos (Imperial Germany fans) are relatively tolerated, even if Imperial Germany was kinda bad for it's time (Not Nazi tier, but definitely Proto Nazis).

I wonder about China tho. They basically were being the victim of "Anti" Imperialist powers. Imperial Japan "liberation" (from.their earthy bodies) and sheer Soviet spite.

 

[Bookmark1995]

To be fair, they can't just say "it was normal back then" there? I mean, ITTL Kaiserboos (Imperial Germany fans) are relatively tolerated, even if Imperial Germany was kinda bad for it's time (Not Nazi tier, but definitely Proto Nazis)

Yes, but the Kaiser, belligerent moron that he was, didn't start pogroms, nor did he nuke Chinese people.

 

[Augenis]

Yes, but the Kaiser, belligerent moron that he was, didn't start pogroms, nor did he nuke Chinese people.

He did green-light a genocide of the Herero people and the Rape of Belgium, and the technological level was not yet there for nuking China.

 

[KazuyaProta]

I meant about the days before the Soviets. The Tsarist days.

^ This. If there some.pride for the Kaiser days, I wonder if Russians can have some for.their Feudal days.

 

[Augenis]

I meant about the days before the Soviets. The Tsarist days.

^ This. If there some.pride for the Kaiser days, I wonder if Russians can have some for.their Feudal days.

Tsarist Russia has indeed seen a revival of popularity in modern Russia, and I think somewhere around 30% of Russians would approve of the restoration of the monarchy or something like that.

 

[KazuyaProta]

I mock that ITTL. But given what we work here. I'm fine with allowing that to ensure that Russia don't fall into national depression and self hate.

 

[Bookmark1995]

He did green-light a genocide of the Herero people and the Rape of Belgium, and the technological level was not yet there for nuking China.

Fair enough, but the crimes against the Herero (sadly) aren't really part of the German historical consciousness, and crimes against the Belgians were, well, exaggerated for propaganda purposes. One of the reasons why the Allies didn't talk about the Holocaust in 1942 was because most people would assume it to be a fabrication.

Tsarist Russia has indeed seen a revival of popularity in modern Russia, and I think somewhere around 30% of Russians would approve of the restoration of the monarchy or something like that.

Perhaps that might be an option: a Romanov restoration. That could work, as long as the Romanov doesn't get to steer the ship of state.

 

[President Earl Warren]

oppression of serfs

I dont think you could blame RUssian nationalism for the Opression of serfs, the rest though right on the money.

 

[Hades]

I wonder how central Asia is coping since as mentioned before Stalin could very well have exterminated the kazakhs.

 

[akoslows]

Perhaps that might be an option: a Romanov restoration. That could work, as long as the Romanov doesn't get to steer the ship of state.

Wasn’t life still pretty brutal for non-Russians back during the rule of the Tsars? I can’t see many people in Russia being willing to forget that just because of how horrific the USSR became ITTL.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Wasn’t life still pretty brutal for non-Russians back during the rule of the Tsars? I can’t see many people in Russia being willing to forget that just because of how horrific the USSR became ITTL.

That's why I am also skeptical of some neo-Tsarist revival. But Russians, after the ITTL failure of the USSR, need something to rally around.

 

[Historyman 14]

I'm with @Bookmark1995. Russian History is now almost just nothing, but brutal rulers, and chaos. As awful as the Tsar rule could be, Stalin is far, far worst then anyone before him. Everyone after him either prove unable to rule, or just a lot of Stalin puppets from beyond the grave. The whole War with the Nazis is 'between two monsters which one turns out to be worst'. Who within a few years, started doing what the Nazis did and more.

 

[Historyman 14]

That's why I am also skeptical of some neo-Tsarist revival. But Russians, after the ITTL failure of the USSR, need something to rally around.

I would not mind a neo-Tsarist revival in Siberia...

Biggest 'F-you' to Stalin and the Communists.

 

[Bookmark1995]

I'm with @Bookmark1995. Russian History is now almost just nothing, but brutal rulers, and chaos. As awful as the Tsar rule could be, Stalin is far, far worst then anyone before him. Everyone after him either prove unable to rule, or just a lot of Stalin puppets from beyond the grave. The whole War with the Nazis is 'between two monsters which one turns out to be worst'. Who within a few years, started doing what the Nazis did and more.

I think the whole period between the Russo-Japanese War and the Second Russian Civil (provided nothing terrible comes after that) might be regarded as one giant period of horror. The same way the Chinese have the Century of Humiliation (which ITTL has gone on much longer), much of 20th century Russia could be called "The Era of Shame," or the "Time of Tears."

Not just because of the deaths, but every Russian Head of State has taken the potential of Russia, and the hopes and dreams of the Russian people, and tossed it down the drain.

Tsar Nicholas II took the fastest growing economy in Russia, and the dreams of a Constitutional Monarchy, and burned it all away on stupid wars no one wanted.

The Provisional Government took a joyous occasion, the downfall of Russia's autocracy, and sacrificed their goodwill to continue a futile war.

The Communists had a chance to build their workers' state, and threw away those principles all for personal power and glory.

Stalin took the popularity of Russia after World War II, and burned that because of unending paranoia.

His successors could have used his death to reform a creaky system, but just doubled down on stupid policies.

I am curious to see if the CNS will take victory, and waste it on pettiness and infighting.

 

[Historyman 14]

I think the whole period between the Russo-Japanese War and the Second Russian Civil (provided nothing terrible comes after that) might be regarded as one giant period of horror. The same way the Chinese have the Century of Humiliation (which ITTL has gone on much longer), much of 20th century Russia could be called "The Era of Shame," or the "Time of Tears."

Not just because of the deaths, but every Russian Head of State has taken the potential of Russia, and the hopes and dreams of the Russian people, and tossed it down the drain.

Tsar Nicholas II took the fastest growing economy in Russia, and the dreams of a Constitutional Monarchy, and burned it all away on stupid wars no one wanted.

The Provisional Government took a joyous occasion, the downfall of Russia's autocracy, and sacrificed their goodwill to continue a futile war.

The Communists had a chance to build their workers' state, and threw away those principles all for personal power and glory.

Stalin took the popularity of Russia after World War II, and burned that because of unending paranoia.

His successors could have used his death to reform a creaky system, but just doubled down on stupid policies.

I am curious to see if the CNS will take victory, and waste it on pettiness and infighting.

It is the second 'Time of Troubles' for Russia.

There is only one person who could rival Stalin: Ivan the Terrible. You could say he alone is responsible for the Russian psyche for strong and ruthless leaders, and his death lead to the first Time of Troubles.

Some could say Stalin is the second coming of Ivan the Terrible.

The whole Russo-Japanese War: There was not a single need for that war. Japan was willing to give Russia influence in Manchuria in return for Japanese rule over Korea. Russia just for no good reason screw around and we see the outcome of that.

Russia's whole war in the Great War was almost one long line of sad and depressing defeats. Beyond the Brusilov Offensive, there was nothing to show for the war.

Russian sheer Pride and loose hopes of America coming doomed the Provisional Government.

Nicholas II was a good man, but he was a horrible leader.

 

[akoslows]

The Provisional Government took a joyous occasion, the downfall of Russia's autocracy, and sacrificed their goodwill to continue a futile war.

Russian sheer Pride and loose hopes of America coming doomed the Provisional Government.

Since the Provisional Government has been brought up, I thought I’d ask a pretty important question. Is Russia even capable of transitioning into a democracy once the Second Civil War ends? Considering how much of an utter failure the Provisional Government was, I don’t think many people in Russia would have the fondest thoughts on democracy once the dust begins to settle.

 

[KazuyaProta]

Something weird came for my head.

A japanese friend of mine told met that the Anime obsession with Nazi Germany come due to it being basically the "socially acceptable" way to critique Imperial Japan. Better exemplified with Zeon from Gundam, which was basically Sci Fi Imperial.Japan with Nacional Socialist German paint.

However, given that the URSS become the second Acceptable Target. I wonder if some japanese authors, trying to avoid censorship, would do more villains based on the URSS "anti" Imperialism to mock the own Japanese "anti" Imperialism.

Hopes for weird Japanese-Soviet villains?
Also. China definitely will try to compare them.

 

[Bookmark1995]

Since the Provisional Government has been brought up, I thought I’d ask a pretty important question. Is Russia even capable of transitioning into a democracy once the Second Civil War ends? Considering how much of an utter failure the Provisional Government was, I don’t think many people in Russia would have the fondest thoughts on democracy once the dust begins to settle.

The Provisional Government wasn't a real democracy: it was a collection of moderates that took for granted the people's anger, and it didn't even hold a single election.

The question of whether or not Russia can transition to democracy really depends on a few things.

1) Cohesion among the CNS factions.

So far, the CNS seem only united in defeating the Reds, but can they stay united long enough to create some kind of system of government? ITTL, the Syndicalists have tried to launch revolutions against the CNS, so it strikes me their cohesion is very weak. If they can't united, then within a couple of years, chaos could return to Russia again.

Then we would have Time of Troubles 2: This Time, You're In Trouble Now.

2) Corruption

The outside world might provide a lot of aid for the CNS, but will the CNS, many of them officials forged from the Soviet system, actually use the aid to help Russians, or just embezzle it-which is what Yeltsin's inner circle did.

3) Wealth

Can the post-CNS government rebuild Russia's economy from war and years of mismanagement, or will they make conditions for the Soviets worse then under communism?

These are the things on which a stable, democratic Russia can be built.

 

[HonestAbe1809]

Would the Chinese or the Americans want to give the resources of Siberia back to the government in Moscow? Especially considering that unscrupulous business interests in both countries could decide that a government in Vladivostok or some other Siberian city would be more receptive to their interests than one in Moscow.

 

[Historyman 14]

Would the Chinese or the Americans want to give the resources of Siberia back to the government in Moscow? Especially considering that unscrupulous business interests in both countries could decide that a government in Vladivostok or some other Siberian city would be more receptive to their interests than one in Moscow.

It depends really. If Moscow/the CNS can get its act together and prove themselves, then giving Siberia back would go a long way to helping Russia/stabilized it. (But with lots of business interests that goes in favor of the USA and China.) If they try that, and the CNS are doing a good job, I can't say the Russians in Vladivostok and so on would enjoy being more, or less a joint American/Chinese puppet state.

If not....your Independent Siberia still works, but only now it is because Russia simply can't get its act together and not because it is a insane 1984 style nation.