Twilight of the Red Tsar

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Napoleon IV, Nov 1, 2015.

Loading...
  1. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2012
    Location:
    The Back of the Car
    I may have misread or misinterpreted your post somewhat. But yes, I should have worded my own post better from the start, mentioning Hui rather than Muslim. And thanks for the map. I had thought Muslims had kind of disappeared in ten south, but it seems it may have just been they were too small a minority to see on other maps I found. I THINK Mao did something to Muslim groups down there in the past, but that might have been during general things against different ethnic groups in the south.
     
  2. Joshua Ben Ari Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    Location:
    New England
    When I was writing that to @Historyman 14, the idea that I had in mind was that Magneto survived the Nazi Holocaust as a child and then endured the Soviet Holocaust as a young man while living in Poland. Baron Strucker survives and escapes to the USSR where he takes part in the Soviet Holocaust, aiming to recreate HYDRA as an apparatus of the Soviet government, and even discovers and captures Magneto. So Magneto would be liberated, then endure in the camps again but this time in Siberia (either Yakutia-15 or another gulag), and this would color his views that there is always persecution around the corner so mutants and Jews need to defend themselves. He escapes to Israel in the 1950s, works at a Haifa psychiatric facility to help Nazi and Soviet Holocaust survivors, and founds a quasi-Xavier Institute mixed with 50-State Avengers where Russian Jewish, Middle Eastern, and Israeli Jewish mutants can be safe as long as they can provide for Israel's defense.
     
  3. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Location:
    In the Land of the Ancients.
    One thing I don't think we talked about is the fate and the outcome of China's Christian population.

    In 1950, six months into the PRC's rule, a Chinese Protestant delegation of educators, editors and denominational leaders met with Zhou Enlai in Beijing, who reassured them of the new government's good interiors towards Christians....while also spelling out the PRC expectations that the churches would 'free themselves from imperialist influences' and embrace the new political orders. (This...umm...didn't last too long.)

    In 1951-1952, the Reds kick out all the foreign missionaries in part of the Korean War.

    Among the groups that got started is the Three-Self Patriotic Movement. (Which a leading figure and leader was Y. T. Wu.)

    Other leading Chinese Christians at this time are Watchman Nee, Marcus Cheng, Wang Mingdao, James Yen, and Wu Yifang.

    YMCA where allow to hold pray meetings and conferences till OTL 1955.

    The Miao (A ethnic group belonging to South China.) where badly oppressed by the Chinese and other minority groups, thus they became deeply attracted to Christianity.
     
  4. no one Neither me,nor you. Kicked Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2017
    Location:
    yours
    I would like to see TTLs call of duty black ops. Especially the vorkuta level.
     
  5. Darksider166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Those games will probably involve the Suez War with some conspiracy regarding Nasser and how the Soviets were planting Nova 6 gas delivered by Stalin to attack the Middle East to frame the west and start a massive pan Arab war for Nasser to form a pan Arab federation under his control and be Soviet aligned, also maybe start World War 3. It had you be part of the paratroopers that killed Nasser, stop the Nova 6 gas attacks and maybe it'll have missions in the USSR going after the ailing Stalin who in his madness and dying days will want to bring the world with him, also plenty of missions in China, the China missions serve as the Vietnam analogue.

    Edit: Twilight's Black Ops 2 will feature a Chinese man as the main antagonist or Raul Menendez stand in, he was a former PLA turned Yellow Banner who participated in the Korean War, left for dead against the Soviets and defected following the atomic bombing of Beijing. Wandered around, got enticed by Long Zhi's propaganda and becomes a ruthless soldier and drug runner selling opium to the Soviets and participating in the Burmese Civil War. His family is unfortunately killed in the final wave of atomic strikes by Stalin in 1958 (or from the smallpox epidemic) which finally breaks him and he becomes adamant on destroying the two superpowers, unfortunately the Yellow Banners collapse after the KMT invade and the Soviets collapse not long after. He still wants revenge though and plots terror attacks on America and Russia to spark a nuclear war between the two so both can be destroyed and perhaps China and the world can rebuild and make a better future without capitalism and Communism determining every nations sovereignty.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  6. KazuyaProta Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Damn. Fiction here looks so amazing. Communist and Soviet villains died after the Cold War, but here? They're going to stay and evolve. Fiction is going to have.a wild time
     
    Johannes Parisiensis likes this.
  7. Ratmancampidori Alcoholic Canuckistani

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2014
    Location:
    Canuckistan
    I’m slightly sad we’ll never see The Hunt for Red October in this world
    However we will possibly see an entirely different series from Tom Clancy...or he could stay an insurance salesman.
     
    KazuyaProta likes this.
  8. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    Dr. Strangelove will also never be made as well...:'(
     
    Ratmancampidori likes this.
  9. Historyman 14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Location:
    In the Land of the Ancients.
    Any TTL version of it would be play completely seriously and focus on the madness of the Soviet Leaders will to destroyed the world match only by the justifiably paranoia of the West.

    Or something like that.
     
  10. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    Considering how nuclear warfare is a reality in this world, the idea of MAD is never discredited. People might think it was having nukes that prevented mad Joe from attacking Europe.
     
  11. Darksider166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    I wonder if in TTL if Marvel doesn't go bankrupt and renews Captain America, will the Red Skull remain communist like he was in the 1950s instead of staying a Nazi? Also possibly bringing back that communist Electro villain from Captain America #78 (1954). Actually come to think of it, with the Soviets becoming the new nazis and WW3 scares all through the 1950s I wonder if the Silver Age of Heroes got an early start in the late 50s with new heroes created to fight the communists.

    Also we might see early Jewish and Asian superheroes since In an update about film it mentioned Asian Americans catching a break due to the war in China and comics would be quick to give them representation in comics fighting commies to rouse up patriotism and provide more unity against the communist menace.
     
  12. Admiral Halsey Best damn Admiral in US history

    Joined:
    May 27, 2014
    I mean we always could if Clancy decides to become a writer of Alternate History. The whole Ryanverse could be an AH series actually.
     
    Ratmancampidori likes this.
  13. KazuyaProta Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    More representation! Yes!!

    I imagine most YellowPerill villains would dissapear sooner.

    Also. OTL Cuban President did visit Mao and Lenin tomb. Reading that right after reading this time line is...interesting.

    How Mao would be seen ITTL?. I imagine that people that apologize him would see him as a Noble Hero.that got backstabbed for Stalin (only the latter half is true).
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  14. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    I can movies depicting Chinese people as victims of oppression, mainly from brutal imperialism.

    Mao might be seen more sympathetically ITTL, but in general his reputation might be more comparable to the Kaiser or Tsar Nicholas: a moronic despot who allowed his pride to lead his nation toward disaster.
     
  15. Xianfeng Emperor Amateur Iran-o-phile

    I'd actually think that the yellow peril would be heightened. Refugee crises are inevitably influxes of immigration that bring an impoverished, uneducated populace that likely knows little to no English, does not practice Protestant Christianity, and doesn't fit into the WASP mold at all. Given how bad OTL yellow perilism already was, I think a migrant crisis can only add fuel to the fire. Expect many more Fu Manchu films in the coming 10-20 years...

    If ghettos form from sprawling Chinatowns, perhaps a revival of the Tong Wars is on the horizon? Especially given the conflicts back at home, pseudo-ethnic rivalries (Cantonese vs Hakka, Hakka vs Teochew etc) might get fairly bloody. This could certainly revive '30s Sinophobia.

    Where China is the vast oriental horde invading America, Japan would represent the stereotypical, racist caricature if the shrewd, mystical and terrifying side of the orient. Japanese zaibatsus could get very rich from the Chinese quagmire and fears of the Japanese buying up the world would likely quickly surface.
     
  16. Darksider166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Nah, Mao will still be seen as despotic and evil, the only difference is that he got ousted too quickly by Stalin, but there were signs before the POD in 1953 that Mao was going to be no better and given China's bigger population, he had the potential to be even worse. For example on the wikipedia article "Mass Killings under Communist Regimes when talking about China it mentions:

    "The first large-scale killings under Mao took place during land reform and the counterrevolutionary campaign. In official study materials published in 1948, Mao envisaged that "one-tenth of the peasants" (or about 50,000,000) "would have to be destroyed" to facilitate agrarian reform.[139] The actual number killed during land reform is believed to have been lower, but at least one million people.[137][140] The suppression of counterrevolutionaries targeted mainly former Kuomintang officials and intellectuals suspected of disloyalty.[141] At least 712,000 people were executed, while 1,290,000 were imprisoned in labor camps."

    Also I think some savvy geopolitical experts or alt history writers ITTL will figure even if Stalin died in 1953, Mao would just get to run China into the ground with similar programs he envisaged as well as the fact that China is too big to be controlled by the Soviets for long and a split was inevitable, only a war between the two I can see is debated in TTL, I can imagine in TTL's alternate history.com, the Sino-Soviet War is usually pushed back in Stalin dead TLs to around the 1960s as they'll point to border disputes between China and Russia. The idea of no Sino-Soviet War is probably ASB to the inhabitants of this timeline.

    On the bright side though, it appears with no Vietnam War, the Khmer Rouge's rule in Cambodia will be averted, the Khmer Rouge could possibly still exist but mostly as an underground guerilla movement. The communist regimes in Ethiopia, Mozambique, Angola, and Somalia will most likely be averted as Communism is discredited, they might become radicalized Syndicalists though since in one update, it mentions Syndicalism taking shape in Africa from Gbenye, and some people could probably use it for malevolent gains, for example in the update "The Rest" it mentions:

    "Gbenye argued that the primary goal of an agrarian society should be to get industrialized, and that the most efficient way to do so was central planning. Thus, he advocated for a committee, selected by the congress of trade unions, whose job would be to organize the industrialization. Unlike other committees this one would have real power, being able to set things such as the goals for industrial output, set up factories, and move encourage the movement of workers from rural areas to the cities to staff these factories."

    Seems pretty clear but I think this can be twisted by men like idk Idi Amin, Mariam, etc. to slightly change this into becoming something like forcing people out of farms into cities to build factories in slave labor with oppressive committees giving unrealistic quotas to industrialize quickly to catch up and rival the west. Though the update mentions a Syndicalist wave in the 1970s with no foreshadowing of bad things but who knows.

    Unrelated Side Note: With the purging of so many officials like Molotov, Kaganovich, etc. a lot of things from their personal accounts on things in the Soviet government will never be known to the public since they would never give out memoirs of their life or thoughts like the book "Molotov Remembers" will never exist in TTL so alot more speculation will be used I think.
     
  17. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2016
    On the other hand, since the CNS is explicitly very anti-communist, a lot of stuff we don't know OTL could easily come out, since the CNS will want to bury the Stalinists 6000 feet under.
     
  18. Thon Taddeo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    I would be cautious about the claims in the article you link. Two of the citations in the passage you quoted from wikipedia are by Daniel Goldhagen, whose most famous book (Hitler's Willing Executioners) was largely trashed by historians, and another is from RJ Rummel, whose estimates of what he calls democide are far higher than any other mainstream scholar. One of the other books is a popular book written by a journalist (the quality of which I am uncertain) and the fourth is by a scholar who was expelled from Stanford for unethical conduct (though he claims the university was pressured by the Chinese government).

    Skimming the article's bibliography show a mix of very good academic sources, and some not so good ones.
     
    skaven likes this.
  19. KazuyaProta Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2018
    Syndicalist dictatorships existing...uh, that would be interesting.
     
    Ratmancampidori likes this.
  20. Magnimik Honorary Judeo-Bolshevik

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2017
    Location:
    Free Russian Empire
    I believe that the US was mostly unaffected Chinese refugee crisis on her territories. The main routes for Chinese refugees were Southeast Asia, Korea, Japan, Hong Kong and Macau.
     
Loading...