Twilight of the Red Tsar

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Napoleon IV, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. Lost Freeway Western Propaganda F***er

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    It would be very ironic if TTL United States were to go to hell just like the Soviet Union when the next economic crisis hits.

    It would serve as a reminder that both extreme socialism and extreme capitalism are harmful.
     
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  2. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Not that it wouldn't be a interesting sequel to Twilight of the Red Tsar, but the story has already been done.

    But ITTL, I doubt it could get as bad as that.

    For example, if people went up in protest over a bad recession, I don't think the response of the federal government would be, you know, genocidal insanity and mass repression.

    But there could be some upheaval, which could end up destroying this anti-New Deal consensus that has taken over this country.
     
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  3. Lost Freeway Western Propaganda F***er

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    Never say never. To quote Nietzsche, "And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
     
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  4. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I don't know what that means.
     
  5. KuboCaskett Resident Japanophile

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    I've just got ahold of the Iron Curtain of which deals with the rise of Soviet control of Eastern Europe during and after WWII from 1944 up to 1956 and I wonder if this book was any help in making this TL?
     
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  6. Napoleon IV Don't Make Me Run, I'm Full of Chocolate

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    It was. It's also a must-read if you have plans on studying Russia/Eastern Europe (which I do).
     
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  7. KuboCaskett Resident Japanophile

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    I actually do for a TL where the Korean War leads to a WWIII of sorts, though it's a separate TL from my other one but I digress.
     
  8. Lost Freeway Western Propaganda F***er

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    Seriously?
    EDIT:I'm not calling you stupid or anything, I'm just surprised you don't know.
     
  9. Augenis Well-Known Member

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    You underestimate the human capacity to forget.
     
  10. TheHolyInquisition Opinionated

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    A more relevant way to put it, and the first part of the quote: "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster."
    Stuff like internment camps, crushing dissent at home, and the whole process of disagreement becoming treason.
     
  11. Napoleon IV Don't Make Me Run, I'm Full of Chocolate

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    When we look at governments that have dealt with past atrocities Germany is in many ways the gold standard. Here are some factors that allowed Germany to do so:

    1. A strong state that vigorously enforced anti-Nazi laws, making sure that they could never again be a significant force in politics

    2. An education system and government that stresses both the atrocities and the culpability of all Germans in them, so that people aren't raised to believe that the Nazis were an aberration that can never happen again.

    3. (At least in West Germany) a booming economy, which makes it so that people accept the new state and don't long for the "good old days" of Nazism.

    In order to be successful in dealing with the legacy of Stalinism Russia needs the same things, and the question is: can a state ravaged by civil war and political infighting manage to pull this off?
     
  12. Augenis Well-Known Member

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    ^^^
     
  13. lukedalton Well-Known Member

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    Elect a syndacalist goverment? Possible...but turn in syndacalist state? Much more difficult, first the european brand seem less revolutionary and more prone to let thing develop till syndacalism will naturally take over and second both are functioning democracy (with some problem but still normally functioning) and have succesfully resisted the troubles of OTL 70's (at least Italy) so i doubt somekind of revolution will happen as things will be much quieter with communism gone and ITTL equivalent of the Red Brigade, RAF and co. (if existing and probably some fringe syndacalist taking point from the 'dictatorship' brand) receiving just some little external support.
    Hell, with Red China and URSS gone and whatever took their places in dire need to rebuild, the various liberation front, terrorist group, wold-be revolutionaries of OTL will find themselfs without anyone that finance them lavishly like the soviets; the portughese colonial wars and Rhodesia (among many other places) will be extremely different from OTL.
     
  14. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Well, several updates indicate that the anti-communist laws are going to be challenged, potentially overturned. So this atmosphere of persecution may exist, but it won't last that long.

    Those are three very important thresholds. To answer the question:

    1. The CNS is ruthlessly going to town on the Stalinists, so no doubt they are pushing laws banning the Communist Party.

    2. The CNS has kind of started the process: they've let Jews immigrate, and they executed an MGB agent to demonstrate "never again". They also need to make themselves look better, so they'll do everything they can to educate people about the atrocities. Textbooks, memorials to victims of the Soviets, from kulaks to Abkhazians

    3. The potential for Russia's new leaders to be oligarchical kleptocrats is a lot less than OTL. The oligarchs were former communist officials (again proving the utter lie of Soviet ideology). Many of these venal fellows are well, going to end up with bullets between the eyes. So it is more likely Russia's new leaders will use the aid money they get to rebuild instead of line their pockets.
     
  15. KuboCaskett Resident Japanophile

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    While Germany has made some very good strides in discouraging Nazi apologia and how the Nazi past shouldn't be glorified, I would argue that I think that their whole guilt over WWII has gone too far; I mean they were very against being proud of their nation to the point of discouraging something like flag waving and despite rearmament, were very against getting involved in international conflicts for a while and not to mention banning certain symbols in video games. Granted the last part is mainly in the country (and somewhat understandable) but I bring it up since it affects some international copies of some games like Hearts of Iron and Sniper Elite, where the swastikas are replaced by non-swastika symbols and I'm very annoyed at it since I believe they have a place in adding to the time period the games are set (and not offended by them) but I digress. That and this ridiculous fear of a "fourth Reich" that might arise one day, though that might more of a general Western mentality than a strictly German one.
     
  16. MagicalPhantom345 Well-Known Member

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    The CNS has already gone out of it's way to enforce education that explores the horrors of the Soviet Era in detail as well as execute or arrest former members of the Soviet apparatus.

    Though I do think that the Russian republic will go the same way as the Weimar republic economically because they will be taking out a LOT of loans from US and European banks to rebuild there country. Though this will come back to bite them hard when the next economic recession roles around since legislation involving welfare and Bank regulation has been gutted a generation earlier as well as more thoroughly than OTL, not to mention the Baby Boomer Culture centering on personal gain makes a second Great Depression all the more possible.
     
  17. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Or, for a more interesting possibility, imagine Russia prospering at the same time the USA and Europe go down the tubes?
     
  18. MagicalPhantom345 Well-Known Member

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    It would make for an interesting subversion of most other Cold War timelines, it's easy to see Anti Russian sentiment develop in western countries over the fact that the resented nation on earth is the leading economic power and western nations are struggling from their economic meltdown.
     
  19. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    Anti Russian sentiment is going to persist no matter what the Russians do. Economic envy will be another excuse for the common man to despise them.
     
  20. MagicalPhantom345 Well-Known Member

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    Though if anything India seems like the best chance Russia has at fostering a good relationship with, so maybe Eurasian Union as the next competing block in the future?