Would definitely give more incentive to reverse these neo conservative policies than the OTL 2008 Crash
Twilight of the Red Tsar
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Would definitely give more incentive to reverse these neo conservative policies than the OTL 2008 Crash
Redshank Galloglass
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I'm not convinced. It may take a few decades, but progressive policies don't tend to have staying power.
Bookmark1995
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I think there won't just be a backlash against neoliberalism, but a cultural backlash against the individualist worldview that has consumed America.
ITTL, the Baby Boomers, born in an era of economic confidence and anti-communist hatred, have embraced an ideology that gives yuppie capitalism a moral justification. The Baby Boomers pray to profit and personal advancement. The Gordon Gekko is a man who has a poster of Rand his Manhattan duplex apartment. They're personal carriage is the BMW, they're elixir is wine and weed.
But I think their children, who will come age in the 1980s and 1990s, will inevitably revolt against such shallow values. OTL hippies rejected the "progress" of their parents as vapid and meaningless. ITTL, the vapidity will be more obvious, and thus the urge to resist it will be stronger. If a brutal recession or depression occurs during this time period, this social rebellion will be stronger than ever.
If there is a global recession brought on by McBride and his followers, this social rebellion will only be more pronounced, since young people will blame Rand and her books for destroying their futures.
American syndicalism could emerge one of two ways: it is mainly social movement of communes and collective living. Or, if the ITTL federal government does little to solve economic problems, it could be an armed rebellion that merges the OTL 1990s militia movement, the OTL neozapatistas, and the OTL SLA.
Regarding a Great Depression II: the revenge, much depend if also the control and failsafe are eliminated or just the welfare in general had taken a severe hit or tariff and protectionism get back in force; one must also consider the effect that this american attitude will have towards the Euro-American relationship as with the URSS gone, Europe will probably become in the eyes of the neocon just slightly better than the syndacalist ...and ITTL Europe had more independence, in term of military forces, than OTL thanks to the EDC and it's more integrated.
Redshank Galloglass
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Aall I can say is that America's deeper fall into Neoliberalism is nothing short of a crapsack world.
QueerSpear
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Doubtful- after Stalin the authoritarian left is literally nazi commies. However TTL has a libertarian ideology which promotes co-operation, direct democracy and mutual aid in the form of syndicalism. In fact I would say that syndicalism could probably be very popular in America, as it has its own national brand (De Leonism) while Europe will probably shift towards social democracy.
It would be very easy to sell De Leonism to Americans TTL based on nationalism and small government values, no doubt exposing the neocons* hypocrisy from right to work laws to taxes and economic freedom.
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Redshank Galloglass
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>De Leonism
You called?
Seriously though, a world where Radical Leftism may be more palatable to Americans rather than Eastern Europeans. The world just may be turned upside down.
Though I do feel like Italy and France could possibly turn Syndicalist. Ireland might as well, especially if you bring James Connolly style nationalism into play.
Britain, like always, will be a beacon of "political moderation"
Bookmark1995
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So it could be a small scale, bottom up, political revolution? Would small towns experiment with DeLeon principals?
Redshank Galloglass
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Depends on how much the resident aristocracy would allow a political revolution.
They could just go to Europe, after all.
That generation will probably be embracing philosophies that go against those of their parents like communal-ism, moralism, and the works of Mikhail Bakunin
Bookmark1995
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One your first point, utopian experiments have been a staple. I don't see why a bunch of young people wouldn't build their own communities from the ground up. Bethel, NY was a town run by Silent Majority types, and it got to host one of the most far-left festivals ever.
Hungary could definitely be an exile community for American syndicalists. Hungarians definitely want American kids to fall in love with their country, hence their pro-Semitic policies. American people loving them brings them international standing, and American students bring expertise and fresh ideas.
I bet more than a few Americans will end up in Cuba. The young people would regard the embargo against Cuba as nonsensical, and more radical types would be eager to join the Cubans.
QueerSpear
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For a political revolution (unlike a social revolution, which goes through the bullet and not the ballot) to succeed you need everyone to respect the democratic will and considering that capitalists sought to overthrow FDR, I don't think the capitalists reaction to an authentically anti-capitalist movement will be friendlier. An attempt at American Pinochet would probably happen in the scenario- people in power are not just going to give up their power unless forced to.
While syndicalism might be popular as a label, trade unions are gutted TTL far more than OTL. Syndicalism literally means trade unionism in Spanish/Portuguese/Italian/French languages and I am pretty sure the US government will learn the trade unions = socialism pretty quickly
Bookmark1995
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Maybe I'm being too idealistic, but even if syndicalism became a political movement ITTL, I don't think the US Government would try and clamp down on democracy. Maybe legal roadblocks, but not military suppression.
Redshank Galloglass
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I don't think you understand how close fucking FDR came to being overthrown in a coup. The only reason it didn't happen is because our guy Smedley Butler outed the perpetrators. Remember, FDR didn't even want to get rid of capitalism.
How do you think the U.S government would react to a movement that directly challenges the old order as we know it?
QueerSpear
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They don't need to ban elections- the US government crushed syndicalism once through state repression, mass arrests and deportations after WWI. They certainly could do that twice.
Bookmark1995
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First of all, that Plot was never proven beyond his testimony. But I'm not going to get into a debate about that.
Yes, but circumstances in the ITTL 1980s could preclude any justification for such repression.
Redshank Galloglass
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Because Butler had so much to gain from creating the Business Plot and becoming a political pariah because of it. Yeah, okay.
You're right though, this place isn't the best area to argue about it, so let's just drop it.
A congressional investigation into the matter suggested Butler wasn't wrong but there was no further inquiry into it and many have suspected it never amounted to more than just talk among some rich guys or he overreacted to what he was told. So yeah, borderline conspiracy theory.
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Redshank Galloglass
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It's a conspiracy, all right. I dunno if we'll ever be able to tell the validity of it, though.
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