Twilight of the Red Tsar
- Thread starter Napoleon IV
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My dad says something similar about jews, and we're not even jewish.
Bookmark1995
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In the words of Reb Tevye, "I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?"
But more seriously, a lot of theodicies are going to come out of the Soviet Pogrom.
As a Jew, I kind of agree with that statement, but personally I consider myself a deist: I don't think God favors anybody.
I strongly doubt that given how the Religious Right are devout followers of Social Conservatism and following traditional values, which would clash fiercely with the Objectivist mentality of throwing those values to the wind. This will could have the positive consequence of keeping them out of politics and create a secular socially liberal political right more willing to embrace social change.
Not all of them, but I have met quite a few who truly believe everything that Adolf Hitler said about the Jews.
Bookmark1995
Banned
One of the obvious brights of this TL, which I talk about against the backdrop of recent tensions, is Korea's reunification. It is interesting that North Korea couldn't really establish itself as a state. Kim Il Sung was tossed from power, preventing North Koreans from having a larger than life leader. The country was pummeled by the Red Army. I believe reunification will be a lot easier, because North Koreans never had the environment to consolidate their nation and build a seperate identity.
That is true, though I wonder if Vietnam will fill that role in this timeline by remaining divided.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Yes, along with Jews and Chinese, former North Koreans, stung by treachery, are going to be some of the most rabidly anti-left people imaginable.
In fact, once Korea liberalizes, there will be a lot of literature about how miserable North Korea was to live in.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I wonder how South Africa has been influenced by all the chaos that has happened.
I think it would be too simplistic to say "apartheid is under less scrutiny".
Yes, the US would increase its ties to South Africa, as would the rest of the West.
But I think there could be significant changes beyond that.
1) Remember, the officials who supported apartheid often held Nazi sympathies. Since the Soviet Pogrom, anti-semitism is considered the most appalling attitude to have. So would the most blatant apartheid racists be rendered unpopular, leading to some of the worst aspects of apartheid being moderated?
2) How has South Africa's Jewish community changed politically? Many South African Jews played a role in the anti-apartheid movement. Joe Slovo, who was Jewish, was a prominent Communist. Has the revelation of the Soviet Pogrom not only pushed them to the right, but made them give on anti-apartheid altogether, and adopt the siege mentality of Afrikaners?
3) Are ties between South Africa and Israel stronger then ever?
4) What have Nelson Mandela and other ANC leaders done? Like the Civil Rights Movement, have they pushed out the Communist Party, realizing how toxic the label is now? Have they also chosen syndicalism as an ideology?
5) Since the Cold War is now ending early, will there be a backlash against apartheid in the West?
On a related note, what has happened in Rhodesia ITTL?
I think it would be too simplistic to say "apartheid is under less scrutiny".
Yes, the US would increase its ties to South Africa, as would the rest of the West.
But I think there could be significant changes beyond that.
1) Remember, the officials who supported apartheid often held Nazi sympathies. Since the Soviet Pogrom, anti-semitism is considered the most appalling attitude to have. So would the most blatant apartheid racists be rendered unpopular, leading to some of the worst aspects of apartheid being moderated?
2) How has South Africa's Jewish community changed politically? Many South African Jews played a role in the anti-apartheid movement. Joe Slovo, who was Jewish, was a prominent Communist. Has the revelation of the Soviet Pogrom not only pushed them to the right, but made them give on anti-apartheid altogether, and adopt the siege mentality of Afrikaners?
3) Are ties between South Africa and Israel stronger then ever?
4) What have Nelson Mandela and other ANC leaders done? Like the Civil Rights Movement, have they pushed out the Communist Party, realizing how toxic the label is now? Have they also chosen syndicalism as an ideology?
5) Since the Cold War is now ending early, will there be a backlash against apartheid in the West?
On a related note, what has happened in Rhodesia ITTL?
I believe Napoleon said that France and Great Britain feel more secure about their colonial empires thanks to the Suez Crisis going the other way, it butterflied Macmillan's "Winds of Change" speech and prevent the Union of South Africa from leaving the commonwealth to become a Republic like OTL. Which could mean a more developed economy and slowing down the implementation of Apartheid when news of the Second Holocaust.
Bookmark1995
Banned
So you think the Afrikaners would have enough self awareness to draw comparisons between the policies of Hitler and Stalin, and themselves and not go full throttle? I doubt that.
But then again, a non-dysfunctional democratic South Africa that eases its way into multiracial suffrage could be a positive that results from the TL.
Here's the thing. Going full Stalin is how you wind up with a US CVN group off your coast, going "Yo, we heard you went Stalin. Have some Freedom!"
Especially since here, they saw what happened when you don't act in time.
No I damn don't if i'm being honest. Though they may benefit by being allowed to fully incorporate Namibia in the future
Bookmark1995
Banned
I don't think that would happen. But I do believe that, with the Cold War ending, Knowland may be less tolerant of apartheid, having just expanded civil rights at home.
They would, but not the Namibians.
Not really, not acting against South Africa is how you wind up being compared to Stalin. That's a bad thing in the US, because that's how you lose elections.
I wouldn't think so since Namibia has a noticeable Afrikaner and German Minority within it's borders
"The President has allied our great nation with a country that seeks to perpetuate the discrimination and oppression of a minority!"
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