Turtledove's fantasy books

[Flocculencio]

Leaving aside his AH books, lets turn to what IMHO is Turtledove's better field- fantasy. I'm not going to ask peoples opinion on 'Into the Darkness' and its sequels as they already have a thread to themselves.

The Lost Legion series (and its spinoff) was pretty amusing though pretty much a direct copy of the Byzantine empire. Still, as I said, it was interesting and well written enough.

There was another standalone book by HT set in Mesopotamia just before the dawn of written history. The premise was that the gods were real and each town had its own god. The wilderness between the town were inhabited by demons and usually only the power of the gods protected travellers. I enjoyed it but I can't remember the books name.

And finally we come to my personal favourite of HTs collected work- the tales of Gerin the Fox. These are amusing, snappy reads set in a situation which is a bit like a clone of the fall of the Roman Empire but with some differences notably that its set in a Bronze Age chariot culture.

So has anyone else read these?

 

[Wombat]

Yeah, I really enjoyed his Tales of the Fox - that's how i got into Turtledove, I bought Wereblood by "Eric Iverson" on spec - it was remainedered for 49 cent (au). From there I got into the Misplaced Legion books. IMHO as an AH writer, he makes a good fantasy novelist (EXCEPT for the Darkness novels).

And yes, I thought Between the rivers was a very good read.

 

[zoomar]

I'm not much of a fantasy fan so I've never read HT's fantasy. A question to those who like it: Are the works characterized by some of the same stylistic and literary flaws in his AH, like too many PoV charcters, stilted dialog, and sometimes clumsy exposition? Frankly, the only thing which keeps me reading HT's AH is the fact that these books usually have interesting POD's and history behind them. I'd be hard-pressed to enjoy a piece of pure fantasy or SF written in HT's AH style.

 

[Flocculencio]

I'm not much of a fantasy fan so I've never read HT's fantasy. A question to those who like it: Are the works characterized by some of the same stylistic and literary flaws in his AH, like too many PoV charcters, stilted dialog, and sometimes clumsy exposition? Frankly, the only thing which keeps me reading HT's AH is the fact that these books usually have interesting POD's and history behind them. I'd be hard-pressed to enjoy a piece of pure fantasy or SF written in HT's AH style.

Surprisingly HTs fantasy work is free from many of the flaws I see in his AH work- frankly speaking I don't much like HT's AH work- I've given up on American Empire etc.

HT manages to keep pretty creative in most of his actual fantasy instead of his "lets take the history of Europe over the past 150 years and apply it to America while forgetting about the rest of the world" approach.

HTs fantasy, aside from the aforementioned Darkness novels, is actually rather good for a nice light read- certainly better than most of the Tolkein clones out there. In fact I have the Tales of the Fox back at my home in Singapore, every Christmas when I go home for the holiays, I invariably pick up the Tales of the Fox and give them another go.

 

[Wombat]

The same applies to his straight sci-fi - A world of difference wasn't too bad, nor was his contribution to Pournelle's War World series. It seems that only in his AH (and I count the Darkness books as being as much AH as fantasy) he feels the need to bombard the reader with 50 different viewpoints. Its a shame really because he is a better writer than those books indicate.

 

[Flocculencio]

Diagnosis: Rowlingitis

Its a shame really because he is a better writer than those books indicate.

Unfortunately, Mr. Turtledove has contracted a bad case of Rowlingitis Complacenci

The textbook case is of course that diagnosed in Ms. JK Rowling's work. Rowlingitis can manifest itself when an author (or musician) achieves unprecedented and/or unexpected success. The lesser strain Rowlingitis Complacenci occurs when an authors success in breaking through to a larger market reflects itself in greater complacency resulting in shoddier books. This is probably the strain contracted by Mr. Turtledove with his success in bringing AH fiction through to the more mainstream sci-fi, fantasy and historical fiction readers.
Another retroactively diagnosed example of Rowlingitis Complacenci is Piers Anthony.
Rowlingitis Sellouti is more visible than the other strain- indeed the textbook case is that of Ms. Rowling. Confronted by the unprecedented success of her work, Sellouti set in resulting not only in shoddy books but also in substandard movies and various other forms of merchandise. (I mean, they sold Harry Potter Chocolate Dragon Eggs in my Uni cafeteria...)

In any case, I think that thats what caused the drop in the quality of HTs writing.

 

[Prunesquallor]

Why blame poor Turtledove? As the character in Heinlein says, "if it's raining soup, hold out your hat." He's making some cash out of it, more than he would have had he stuck to Byzantine history. Yes, he produces far too much, he might benefit from tighter editing, but no one forces you to buy his books. Frankly I don't rate him that highly as a fantasy or AH writer but he provides good entertainment. My own favourites are the Gerin books and the Darkness series. I don't keep an eye out for publication dates of something by him (in contrast every week I look up George R R Martin's website to find if the swine is any nearer to completing vol 4 of A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE) but when I come across something by him I read it. I prefer him to some more highly regarded writers. How many people actually finished YEARS OF RICE AND SALT (or whatever it was called) without skipping? I certainly didn't.

 

[Flocculencio]

Why blame poor Turtledove? ...Yes, he produces far too much, he might benefit from tighter editing, but no one forces you to buy his books. Frankly I don't rate him that highly as a fantasy or AH writer but he provides good entertainment. ... How many people actually finished YEARS OF RICE AND SALT (or whatever it was called) without skipping? I certainly didn't.

And I do exercise my option as a free consumer and refrain from buying his books. I was simply giving my opinion on why I think he's gone downhill. Like I said, I do enjoy much of his earlier work and if I found a copy of Between the Rivers, or the Videssos books I'd buy it again.

I didn't think much of "Years of Rice and Salt" either

 

[wkwillis]

Last book of the Darkness series

The final book in the Darkness series is pretty much the same as the others. Competently written (I bought it in hardback), but you really have to read the others to follow what's going on. Still hewing pretty closely to the WWII timeline. It's interesting how he has the 'French' as the Germans and the 'Greeks' as the Jews (I think. Weren't the Greeks the Kaunians?).

 

[aktarian]

The final book in the Darkness series is pretty much the same as the others. Competently written (I bought it in hardback), but you really have to read the others to follow what's going on. Still hewing pretty closely to the WWII timeline. It's interesting how he has the 'French' as the Germans and the 'Greeks' as the Jews (I think. Weren't the Greeks the Kaunians?).

Kaunians are Jews, there are no Greeks. Yaninians are Italy and Balkans combined. Other countries should be pretty obvious.

 

[wkwillis]

Turtledove is a Greek freak

Kaunians are Jews, there are no Greeks. Yaninians are Italy and Balkans combined. Other countries should be pretty obvious.

His degree is in Byzantine history. Kaunos is a city with a lot of Greek, Roman and Byzantine ruins. A Kaunian merchant sells the 'Gryphon's skull, (actually a stegasaurus fossil) to Menedemos and Sostratos in his 'Wine Dark Sea' series, written as Turtletaub. 'Taub' is dove in German.

 

[aktarian]

His degree is in Byzantine history. Kaunos is a city with a lot of Greek, Roman and Byzantine ruins.

If you haven't noticed all places in Darkness are real places. It takes some time to figure places and names from which this world countries are which in Darkness. I figured out most of them. Please ask which they are so I can tell somebody I know them.

 

[wkwillis]

OK, tell me.

Russia, Poland, Finland, Africa, North Africa, Japan, Norway, Germany, Italy, Britain, America, France(2?), Austria, ?

 

[Flocculencio]

Britain are those dudes with the sea serpents right?

 

[Faeelin]

Britain are those dudes with the sea serpents right?

I thought it was Lagoas, actually.

 

[aktarian]

Russia, Poland, Finland, Africa, North Africa, Japan, Norway, Germany, Italy, Britain, America, France(2?), Austria, ?

No, I ment that places HT uses in his books really exist in this world.

Here's the list
Algarve-Italian
Forthweg-not exactlly sure, but I think these are old Saxon names
Gyongyos-Hungarian (that was fairly obvious)
Jelgava-Latvian
Kuusamo-Finnish (another fairly obvious)
Lagoas-Portugese
Ortah-???
Sibiu-Romanian
Unkerlant-German (less obvious but Zossen should be clear giveaway)
Valmiera-Latvian as well
Yanina-Greek
Zuwayza-Arab

 

[wkwillis]

Aktarian rules!

Did better than me! Oops, I forgot Switzerland!

 

[Peter Cowan]

There may be an Algarve in Italy, but the more famous one is the Southern region of Portugal noted for its holiday villas, beaches and golf courses.

 

[aktarian]

There may be an Algarve in Italy, but the more famous one is the Southern region of Portugal noted for its holiday villas, beaches and golf courses.

Trapani is Italian AF base.