Turtledove althists

I was curious, are Turtledove's alternate history stories considered ASB even compared to a lot of other althists?
 
The Guns of South is definitely ASB story due time travelling.

TL-191 might be borderline due several parallels and butterfly killings.
 
I was curious, are Turtledove's alternate history stories considered ASB even compared to a lot of other althists?
See, there's two definitions of "ASB" that have emerged. Thankfully, Guns of the South provides examples of both.

The first is some obviously supernatural contrivance, ie "Time travelers give the Confederates AKs to let them win the war".

The second, and more controversial, definition is something so implausible that it would need a supernatural contrivance to work, ie "A victorious Confederacy quickly agrees to a slavery phase-out."

Turtledove goes for a lot of OTL parallels and non-butterflied figures. A lot of this is defensible since he's writing for an audience of people who aren't history enthusiasts. But I think an undeniable part of it is that he's just not the best at worldbuilding, and in many ways got stuck writing a genre unsuitable for him. Someone like that who ends up writing not just alternate history, but "alternate history as a genre" stories that focus on the big picture and need good worldbuilding is going to have many problems.
 
He had a whole series where aliens invaded during WW2 (my introduction to alternate history in fact). Maybe that's not ASB since I suppose it could have happened.
 
He had a whole series where aliens invaded during WW2 (my introduction to alternate history in fact). Maybe that's not ASB since I suppose it could have happened.
Aliens related threads and TLs are stated as ASB no matter how realistic they are or story is.
 
I think it because we don't know whether or not aliens exist. Or how an alien species would look like.
Furthermore one thing is too that them should have much more advanced technology that they could travel between solar systems. And travelling faster than light would require violation of laws of physics.
 
Furthermore one thing is too that them should have much more advanced technology that they could travel between solar systems. And travelling faster than light would require violation of laws of physics.
Except in Turtledove's TL they did not travel faster than light. It took them hundreds of years to get to our solar system and they assumed we would still be at a medieval level of technology because that's the information their probe sent back to them and they assumed our societies developed as slowly as theirs did from a technology perspective. That was kind of the whole premise.
 
I would say Guns of the South, and Worldwar would count as ASB.
I was so disappointed with how the War That Came Early turned out. I always assumed Alien Space Bats was anything that was outwardly crazy as in Alien Space Lizards invading WW2, Time Travellers from 2020 massacring the US fleet before Midway, or anything that would warrant a Star Trek episode. I always felt TL-191 was just a way to have WW1 and 2 funsies in North America.
 
I think it because we don't know whether or not aliens exist. Or how an alien species would look like.
Same deal with time travel to the past. We don't know if it's even possible, let alone how it might work, so althist stories involving it are ASB even if there are hypothetical/theoretical ways it can be done.
 
There are a few of his stories that have a Nazi conquest of India. Would they be considered ASB over the plausibility factor? Apart from how feasible that would have been, didn't Hitler have almost zero interest in India?
 
There are a few of his stories that have a Nazi conquest of India. Would they be considered ASB over the plausibility factor? Apart from how feasible that would have been, didn't Hitler have almost zero interest in India?
It is pretty much ASB. Germany has not cabacities take any British colonies. If it can launch that Operation aquatic cat animal, surely can't do any shit with colonies. And IIRC Hitler didn't want from Brits anything.
 
Turtledove writes for people who are not avid armature historians or actual historians or really rabid history buffs. So he has sprays a lot of insecticide on his works massacring 1000 of butterflies. that said Turtledove and Stirling are were a lot of people (myself included) got into Alternate history. I started with the TL-191 series back in 2001 as a teenager and have never looked back, I remember fondly hunting though the Barn's & Nobel Science Fiction Fantasy section for my next book.
 
Turtledove writes for people who are not avid armature historians or actual historians or really rabid history buffs. So he has sprays a lot of insecticide on his works massacring 1000 of butterflies. that said Turtledove and Stirling are were a lot of people (myself included) got into Alternate history. I started with the TL-191 series back in 2001 as a teenager and have never looked back, I remember fondly hunting though the Barn's & Nobel Science Fiction Fantasy section for my next book.
I think you speak for a lot of us. Turtledove has his flaws but without him a lot of us would not be here and let's face it, there is a reason we call our annual awards Turtledoves. My first experience with Turtledove was the World War series and Guns of the South but it was TL-191 that made a true believer shall we say in the genre of alternate history.
 
Turtledove once wrote a short story called Ziguener in which Hitler served on the Eastern Front in World War I, so instead of Jews being the bane of his existence, it is gypsies, so when he rises to power and starts World War II, he exclusively targets the Romany population of Eastern Europe, leaving the Jewish population untouched, even allowing Jews to openly serve in the German Army. I consider this ASB for many reasons.

There are a few of his stories that have a Nazi conquest of India. Would they be considered ASB over the plausibility factor? Apart from how feasible that would have been, didn't Hitler have almost zero interest in India?
Yes and no. In January 1942, the Nazis and the Japanese agreed on their spheres of influence for after the war. As far as India was concerned, the Nazis wanted everything up to the borders of modern day Pakistan (I have no idea why). The rest of the subcontinent was Japan's feifdom.

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Nazis wanted everything up to the borders of modern day Pakistan (I have no idea why). The rest of the subcontinent was Japan's feifdom.
No, the 70th parallel was Japan's proposal, not Germany's, Nazis proposed the Yenisei River to mark the spheres of influence (not literal border I think?) of Japan and Germany after the war.

I can find almost no sources about which one of these two was the chosen proposal, apparently Hitler himself agreed with Japan's ugly as shit 70th parallel proposal but other German officials didn't, and then some sources later say that later on the Yenisei river was the agreed choice, whichever one the two was the choice, the Yenisei river looks much better in maps.
 
I thought he had a winner in Joe Steele until I read it.But his cronies transplanted to California,the CCC turned into the gulag,instead of packing the SCOTUS he has them executed plus a few more bits just convinced me that he took a good premise and I guess LAZILY pumped it out.Definitely not saying I could do his thing,but I thought there was a lot of potential,maybe Joe Steele as political boss of California during the Depression and the battles with FDR and Federal government
 
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I'd say a large amount of his stuff straddles the ASB line. Aside from his time travel/aliens stuff, he tends too heavy with the parallels (Ex: Timeline 191). The War That Came Early was kinda ASB after a certain point because of the "Big Switch" when France and Britain switch sides half way through the war to fight the USSR and then back again. (That said, I give Turtledove props for the originality).

I thought he had a winner in Joe Steele until I read it.But his cronies transplanted to California,the CCC turned into the gulag,instead of packing the SCOTUS he has them executed plus a few more bits just convinced me that he took a good premise and I guess LAZILY pumped it out.Definitely not saying I could do his thing,but I thought there was a lot of potential,maybe Joe Steele as political boss of California during the Depression and the battles with FDR and Federal government
Joe Steele is one of my favorites from him actually.
 
I'd say a large amount of his stuff straddles the ASB line. Aside from his time travel/aliens stuff, he tends too heavy with the parallels (Ex: Timeline 191). The War That Came Early was kinda ASB after a certain point because of the "Big Switch" when France and Britain switch sides half way through the war to fight the USSR and then back again. (That said, I give Turtledove props for the originality).


Joe Steele is one of my favorites from him actually.
I still think the Two Georges book he wrote with Richard Dreyfus is underrated. The story is slow moving but I love the world he built and I wish he had done more with it.
 
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