Turks in 'Russia'?

Diamond

Banned
In most timelines I've seen, the various Turkish tribes/nationalities always end up in Asia Minor, Egypt, other parts of the mid east, and occasionally India. What could cause a major Turkish Empire in the north, instead? I'm talking about a Turkish state of some kind centered in Kiev, or Ryazan, or even farther north - how about a Turkish Novgorod? :eek:
 

Wendell

Diamond said:
In most timelines I've seen, the various Turkish tribes/nationalities always end up in Asia Minor, Egypt, other parts of the mid east, and occasionally India. What could cause a major Turkish Empire in the north, instead? I'm talking about a Turkish state of some kind centered in Kiev, or Ryazan, or even farther north - how about a Turkish Novgorod? :eek:
Click to expand...

Would the Khazars count as Turks?:confused:

Alternatively, a large Kalmykia may be possible.
 

Wendell

Diamond said:
The Khazars? Kind of, I guess... But I'm going for something much more large-scale - an Ottoman Empire of the North, if you will. :)
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Maybe something could allow the Khazars to pull off such a thing?

Alternatively, the Tatars seem like an ideal choice for a large Turkic state in Russia.
 

MerryPrankster

In one scenario, I had a Nestorian Turko-Mongol state established in Russia following a Crusade against Tamerlane (not sure what the POD was).
 

Keenir

Banned
Diamond said:
In most timelines I've seen, the various Turkish tribes/nationalities always end up in Asia Minor, Egypt, other parts of the mid east, and occasionally India. What could cause a major Turkish Empire in the north, instead? I'm talking about a Turkish state of some kind centered in Kiev, or Ryazan, or even farther north - how about a Turkish Novgorod? :eek:
Click to expand...

how much of eastern/central Russia in OTL is composed of Turkic tribes?
(not just the Tuvans either)
 

DuQuense

Augaurs

Kazakhstan Steppes Dawn 800AD

Shaman Onur Özgür stood in the opening to his tent and watched the sky. he saw a great Golden hawk Stoop, on a pigeon.
Something most have alerted the Pigeon as it Jigged at the last moment, and the Hawk Missed.

Onur Özgür continued to watch as the hawk regained attitude and started north.
Suddenly the Hawk Stooped again, and went flying north with the pigeon in it's claws.

An half Hour later when the Great Khan came out of his tent, the Shaman annouced, Bad Omens to the south, Good Fortune to the North.
As the tribes set out that day they were heading north.

250 years later their descendants were fighting the Rus for control of the plains north of the Caspian, and Black Seas.
 

Sir Isaac Brock

DuQuense said:
250 years later their descendants were fighting the Rus for control of the plains north of the Caspian, and Black Seas.
Click to expand...
That would leave the East Slavs (Rus) either subjugated or fragmented, or both.

I see a Novgorod hold-out in the North, and in one Halych in the West. The rest (including the traditional Rus heartlands like Vladimir and Kiev) would come under Turkish control.

Cool scenario.
:cool:
 

Diamond

Banned
I wonder if a truly strong (not just on paper and in peoples memories) Byzantium would be able to divert Turkic migration to the north - say, a Byzantium that is fully in control of Persia?
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Diamond said:
In most timelines I've seen, the various Turkish tribes/nationalities always end up in Asia Minor, Egypt, other parts of the mid east, and occasionally India. What could cause a major Turkish Empire in the north, instead? I'm talking about a Turkish state of some kind centered in Kiev, or Ryazan, or even farther north - how about a Turkish Novgorod? :eek:
Click to expand...

That's very difficult. The Ottomans became what they were because of their location. Probably your best bet is the Khazars, who had proximity to both Byzantium and Persia/Caliphate.

You would probably need both stonger Persia and Byzantium, shunting the Oguz further north. If the Khazars can survive this and absorb them, you could perhaps see an enduring empire. Note that it would be less exposed to Western thought than were the Ottomans, and might have a very difficult time surviving the 19th c.
 

Ran Exilis

Wendell said:
Maybe something could allow the Khazars to pull off such a thing?

Alternatively, the Tatars seem like an ideal choice for a large Turkic state in Russia.
Click to expand...

It's just a notice, but does anyone here actually know of the existence of Volga Bulgaria?

Volga Bulgaria was the domain of the Bulgars that did not migrate southward to the location of modern Bulgaria,
and they built an empire of their own.

For more information, here's a link.

...and be aware that the Volga Bulgarian kingdom pretty much fits the description of a large Turkish state existing in European Russia...
 

Diamond

Banned
It seems to me that any hypothetical Turkish state founded in northern or middle Russia is going to have its ass handed to it by the Mongols anyway. But what about something later on? What about the Shahdom of Khwarizm? If by some chance they can either stave off the Mongols (not likely), or better, exist in a world where the Mongols aren't united, is there a chance that Khwarizm might have spread northward and westward, into Europe?
 

abas

Ran Exilis said:
It's just a notice, but does anyone here actually know of the existence of Volga Bulgaria?

Volga Bulgaria was the domain of the Bulgars that did not migrate southward to the location of modern Bulgaria,
and they built an empire of their own.

For more information, here's a link.

...and be aware that the Volga Bulgarian kingdom pretty much fits the description of a large Turkish state existing in European Russia...
Click to expand...
Nowadays they are known as Tatars.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Diamond said:
It seems to me that any hypothetical Turkish state founded in northern or middle Russia is going to have its ass handed to it by the Mongols anyway. But what about something later on? What about the Shahdom of Khwarizm? If by some chance they can either stave off the Mongols (not likely), or better, exist in a world where the Mongols aren't united, is there a chance that Khwarizm might have spread northward and westward, into Europe?
Click to expand...

I disagree that the Mongols will necessarily destroy a Turkish state - after all, said state will use the same military tactics, and probably a greater and more handy (not 5,000 miles away) population to draw upon. The Mongols didn't do so well against the Mamelukes, for instance.

Timur crushed the Ottomans, but not due to a superior tactical system, but rather the political and military mistakes made by the Sultan. And with a well-organized central state and deep military resources, they were able to rebound nicely.
 

Susano

Banned
Max Sinister said:
I know of the Volga Bulgars, but why Turks? Bulgars are Slavs...
Click to expand...

Yes, the nowadays Bulgars are Europe must be counted as Slavs. However, they were slavified* - the original Bulgars, as they came into Europe, and the Volga Bulgars, were turkic.

*Or maybe rather, the Bulgars came into a then already largely slavic area, and became assimilated by then, so that most "Bulgarians" do not descend from the Bulgars of then.

However, the Tatars are the Volga Bulgars? I thought they came to Russia as part of the Mongolic Invasions, another nation.
 
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