Turks in a No-Islam scenario: What could happen?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Metaverse, Aug 13, 2019.

  1. Metaverse Banned

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    I needed opinions for my other thread about various scenarios of the Turkic people to proceed and a little bit for the Byzantine Scenarios too.

    Suppose there's no spread of Islam. Mohammed converts to Byzantine Christianity or Zoroastrianism or the invading Muslim Arabs are defeated by the Sassanids and the Byzantines. What effect would this have on the unfolding of History of the Turkic people? Give your opinions.
     
  2. Whiteshore Defender of Myrcella Baratheon

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    Or either Nestorian or Miaphysite Christianity for that matter.
     
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  3. EmperorBuaya Well-Known Member

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    Christian or Zoroastrian Turks, most likely.
     
  4. Dolan Lookin fer Gooby

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    Whatever they convert (edit: Except Judaism), we would still have the fabled recipe of Turkish Pork Roast that was the direct precursor to Kebab, instead of it being lost in time due to Pork becoming Haraam.

    Considering they are deemed worthy as foods for Emperors and Kings' Banquets, that should be one hell of a dish, especially when mentioned by Eastern Roman AND Mongolian Sources.
     
  5. Metaverse Banned

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    So you don't think there is any possibilities of them following Tengrism, Buddhism or any Iranian/Uralic type Shamanistic religions? That is, after they migrate into and settle in places like Europe, Middle East/Persia and India.

    Being Nomadic and diverse, their confederations could consist of Scythians, Sarmatians, Uralics, Siberians(various ethnicities), other Iranic peoples and many other people of Eurasia alongside the Turkic peoples as per migration pathways.
     
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  6. DocJamore Well-Known Member

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    The great Göktürk Khaganate was developed independently of Islam. So the spread of the Turks has already occurred across Central Asia and I do not see that trend reversing. Could they have expanded further after that? They likely would because that is sort of a thing Central Asia does periodically. I don't doubt that many Turkic tribes or confederations would spread across Eurasia like what happened in OTL.

    But we should compare what happened to the Christian Turks vs the Islamic Turks in OTL. The former conquered areas of Europe and then were assimilated into the Christian population leaving at best, in the case of Bulgaria, the name of their country. The ones that converted to Islam not only managed to keep their identity, but ended up dominating the Middle East and those areas of Asia. Could the latter sort of of thing happen in non Islamic world? I suppose it could, but the Christians and the Zoroastrians have strong national identities and it seems even if they ended up being conquered, it seems more likely that the Turks would assimilate into those populations instead.

    So in conclusion, Central Asia and perhaps the Caucuses would be Turkified, but it is more iffy they would expand (in a cultural sense) beyond that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  7. Goldensilver81 Well-Known Member

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    most of them would follow a branch of chirstianity , but the turks that conquer persia would be zoroastrian the eastern turks could turn in to budhisim
     
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  8. Metaverse Banned

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    Okay. So I can take the Tatars, Bulgars, Karachay and Chuvash would be Christian. The Oghuz would be Zoroastrian and all others Buddhist?
     
  9. Goldensilver81 Well-Known Member

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    I say every turkic people that don't invade Persia and settle in modern day europe or rusian steppe are going to Christian
    The turks east of transoxiana would be budisht and chirstian
    And the Turks that invade some parts or all of moder day Iran
    Zoroastrian
    The reason is beacuse zoroastrianisim despite being an axial age religion never has that preaching and spreading mentally of chirstianity

    The wild card here is the Eastern Turks as Christianity would compete with budishim
    So I can't say

    This is something I'm also planning for my timeline but it's a really complicated matter
     
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  10. A Most Sovereign Lady Princess of the Kingdom of Maryland

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    Manicheanism, Zoroastrianism proper which did proselytize, Tengriism, Buddhism, Hinduism; Judaism via the Khazars perhaps; the closer peoples to China may find themselves influenced by Tao, and yes, Christianity.
     
  11. Metaverse Banned

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    I am unsure about Hinduism and Jainism spreading this far outside India, especially where there are other religions' influence.

    Manicheanism is possible as it was already prevalent in Central Asia, Tengrism was the religion of the Turks, Buddhism was widespread, Christianity will be strong among the Volga Bulgars, Tatars and probably the Bashkirs(who otherwise will be Pagan/Tengrist or Buddhist), Tao? Maybe, maybe not. As most Turkic people live faraway from Core China.

    My bet is probably Christianity that spreads first to the Volga Bulgars and then the Tatars, then to the Chuvash and the Bashkirs and then to other Turks in the Central Asia. Possibility with Christianity is if the people bordering the Byzantine Empire join it after converting, the whole migration patterns of others would be different.
     
  12. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    Khazars could convert to Manichaeism instead of Judaism, since it isn't like either the ERE or Persia had much love for that faith. Since it's less of a radical choice than Judaism it could spread more widely in the Volga area.
     
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  13. Metaverse Banned

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    In a No-Islam scenario, unless you have a stronger and Universal Zoroastrianism, Christianity will be the only religion that would be influential to compete with. So Khazars remaining Tengrist wouldn't do much harm, I think. This could get a bit unpredictable but I think they may not be able to escape Christianity that easily. Coming to Persia, until it comes up with its own influential Universal religion, putting up against the Byzantine Christianity may not be so successful. After one or two centuries, the Zoroastrian religion would have a crisis in faith and organization and an emperor decides to found a new religion as I said or simply convert to Byzantine Christianity and be on a safer side.
     
  14. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    Why would the Persians convert to Byzantine Christianity and not just make their own church (probably just Syriac Christianity made more acceptable for imperial needs)? There's no advantage to converting to the sort of Christianity propagated by Byzantium other than letting their clergy from the Patriarch on down pull strings in your state. And in that case the Khazars still have their OTL issue.

    And I disagree that Zoroastrianism would be inevitably on the way out. Indian faiths (Zoroastrianism had a pretty broad spectrum of beliefs in the Sassanid era after all) stayed strong against a universal religion for many centuries.
     
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  15. Metaverse Banned

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    I could also think of some model like a Universal type of Sikhism. Say Islam doesn't exist as the Hijaz Arab tribes have been conquered by the Byzantines and converted or that Mohammed converts to Christianity and becomes a vassal to the Byzantines.

    Zoroastrianism was an ethnic religion and wasnt quite outgoing. In this scenario, they would find themselves on a conquest highway for the Byzantines when there's instability, centuries later. Should such thing happen, the emperor and the rebel clergy could invent some religion based on Zoroastrianism itself, with a highly metaphysical and a deep theme like something like "Religion of Spiritual Truth" or "The principles of Spiritual Truth" and make it more Universal with some sophisticated theology.
    That's a point. But I thought doing that could win over the Byzantines to their side and hence they would have a protection in the future if anything is needed and aid in getting hold of new lands further.
    I agree. But it could change form as I mentioned in the first paragraph.
     
  16. Khanzeer Well-Known Member

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    Is there a possibility of a turkic followers of prophet Mani ?
     
  17. Metaverse Banned

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    Probably in Central Asia.
     
  18. John7755 يوحنا Lightweight Faqih

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    'Hinduism' spread further north in some ways than Zoroastrianism (in Persia, geographically the region of south and southwestern Iran). Several Kushan emperors sponsored the gods of Hindustan and adopted heavily the traits of the Hindu both in religion and in naming custom. Almost all Kushan emperors claimed to be firm in the Dharma and of friendship/rule over the Aryans. Vasudeva I for instance, claimed on his coinage to be the servant or ally of Shiva. Hepthalite rulers were similar, promoting the Hindu gods to the far north of Central Asia and adopting through their heritage of Kushanshah lineage, the Indic characteristics that had been en vogue among the peoples of Central Asia after the advent of the Silk Road, under the Kushan empire. Zoroastrianism by contrast, was the state religion of the Sassanid royalty and not of its populace and certainly not of the nobility, who practiced Iranic polytheism or at least a type of Zoroastrianism, which excluded Ahura Mazda.

    Manichaeism and Nestorianism are possibilities certainly. So, we have the answer generally, regarding religion:

    -Iranic paganism: A Turkic entity perhaps who attempts to connect itself to the Arsacid past and to the more ancient and mythical notions of the Eranshahr. Say, the Ashina clan instead of their flight to the Volga, invade the Sassanid empire and defeat the armies of Hormizd IV. From here, the Ashina form a ruling coalition with either the Mihran or Karen family and we see the restoration of a new dynasty of Eranshahr, say the Ashinid empire.

    -Zoroastrianism: The less likely position, the Turkic entity in Iran appropriates Sassanid religious structure instead of appealing to the noble houses.

    -Nestorianism: This can be achieved in Central Asia or in a conquest of Iran. I would imagine it being more likely in the case of Central Asia. Nestorianism while somewhat strong in Mesopotamia, was not necessarily ascendant, at least not as much as some thinkers have deduced.

    -Manichaeism: An interesting option, the nobles of Iran may even be receptive to this religion if presented well. Regardless, it is effective in Iran, Mesopotamia and within Central Asia. Though, I know of no real presence of Manichaeism in Hindustan, it may also be a religion that can appease some of the Indus Valley folks.

    -Altaic polytheism: The most obvious option, remained their religion generally, until the Abbasid began using Mamluks and thus associated the Turkish peoples more and more to Islam and Arabo-Persianism. This is feasible technically anywhere and will allow a more flexible ruling system wherever they find themselves.

    -Buddhism: A strong contender, for Central Asia, Bactria, India, etc... It has obvious benefits and historically was quite strong in these areas prior to Islam. Could also be received well by the Iranian noble houses and possibly by the denizens of the Pontic steppe or Northern Eurasia, such as the Slavs or Balts.

    -Hinudism: The option would be plausible in the route of a 4th Kushan empire in the model of a Turkic Hepthalite empire, allowing Hinduism to spread north more easily. This also allows the Turkic peoples to associate to Hindustan more easily than otl. Though, in otl, without even relations, the Turkic states empowered by the wider Islamic world, conquered almost entirety of the Hindu world.
     
  19. TyranicusMaximus Irrational Statist

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    Nestorian Turks that still conquer the Roman Empire would be an interesting timeline.
     
  20. Metaverse Banned

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    The Non-Trinitian Christians who have conquered the regions following Trinitian sects have mostly converted to the latter. Goths and Vandals being an example. I wonder the reasons for this. Or could it be avoided?
     
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