Valdemar II
Banned
What if a Turkish tribe settled/conquered Hungary instead of the Magyars, would it have any effect or would Hungary just be Hungary with another language?
Wait, when is this happening, exactly?
What if a Turkish tribe settled/conquered Hungary instead of the Magyars, would it have any effect or would Hungary just be Hungary with another language?
Pretty much the latter, Id say.
What if a Turkish tribe settled/conquered Hungary instead of the Magyars, would it have any effect or would Hungary just be Hungary with another language?
Didn't the Byzantines consider the Magyars to be Turks anyway, as a small aside?
Pretty much the latter, Id say.
Honestly, they were a bunch of horse riding barbarians with a weird incomprehensible language, so I doubt the Byzantines saw them differently than all the other groups, whom fit that describtion (Turks Scyts etc.)
The only other major group of Bulgars were the Volga Bulgars, and you would need a POD in the 600s-700s to get them to migrate west.Around year 900. Maybe a sideline of the Bulgars moves in instead of Magyars, and the Magyars stays on the steppes.
Although IIRC Great Moravia really collapsed around 894, a decade or so before the Magyar raids began. After the death of Svatopluk I, there was a civil war between his two successors (Svatopluk II and Mojmir II) that basically destroyed Great Moravia. So no Magyars would not ensure the survival of Great Moravia, you'd have to go earlier than that.Not counting the butterflies, which could have all sorts of interesting effects: survival of Great Moravia, conversion to Eastern rather than Western Christianity, integration into the HRE, Slavicization of the invaders (like what happened in Bulgaria), more successful expansion up the Danube, less successful expansion into Transylvania, whatever else you can think of.
And I'm pretty sure, by its end, Great Moravia was under the Pope and pretty much Catholic with its own liturgy.
Well, yes. Thing is just - what exactly could change? Im not seeing it. In any meaningful way (i.e., ways that could change other things), like economy or warfare or whatever, one nomadic steppe people is as good as the next.It depends on what happens - there's no way to make a sure claim.
The only other major group of Bulgars were the Volga Bulgars, and you would need a POD in the 600s-700s to get them to migrate west.
But off the top of my head, there are three ways to accomplish what you want, and they all involve the Patzinaks / Pechenegs. The first is that the Magyars could win at the Battle of Southern Buh, which was fought against the Bulgarians. If the Magyars had won, they would probably have been able to invade Bulgaria itself instead of being forced into Pannonia. So the Bulgars would be crushed under a new Magyar tribal state, and the Patzinaks would settle former Magyar lands in the Ukraine AIOTL. Next, let's assume that the Cumans / Kipchaks migrate west AIOTL. They defeat the Patzinaks, and force them to migrate west into Pannonia. So there's a Turkic Hungary c. 1000-1100 AD.
Second option: in the ninth-century wars with the Patzinaks, the Magyar tribes are all but destroyed. The remnants fall under the domination of the three Kabar tribes that were part of the Magyar tribal confederation. (The Kabars were three Khazar Turkic tribes that rebelled against the Khazars around 860 AD.) The Kabars are still forced out of the Ukraine AIOTL, and settle in Pannonia. Only ITTL, there are less migrating people overall, and a majority of them speak the Khazar Turkic language rather than Hungarian.
Third option: After the Magyars migrate west, the Khazars move into the vacated lands in order to prevent the Patzinaks from settling there. But this turns out to be a mistake, as the landless Patzinaks then attack the Volga delta and the Khazar capital of Atil. Over the tenth century the Khazars are driven west, until finally they resort to migrating west beyond the Carpathians to seek shelter from Patzinak attacks. The Hungarian ruler (Fajsz, Taksony, or Géza - whoever is ruling ITTL) allows the Khazars to settle in his territory.
Not sure if this last one would get a Turkic Hungary, but it would create a very significant minority population of Jewish, Khazar-speakers.
Although IIRC Great Moravia really collapsed around 894, a decade or so before the Magyar raids began. After the death of Svatopluk I, there was a civil war between his two successors (Svatopluk II and Mojmir II) that basically destroyed Great Moravia. So no Magyars would not ensure the survival of Great Moravia, you'd have to go earlier than that.
And I'm pretty sure, by its end, Great Moravia was under the Pope and pretty much Catholic with its own liturgy.
It had occurred to me that an earlier POD might work better, but my area of highest knowledge is around the ninth and tenth centuries. Hence why I chose to stick with PODs in that era.You're not addressing any number of PODs possible on the Eastern side of Eurasia, where all these migrations originate. For instance, the Avars moved West because ecological catastrophe in the 6th c allowd the horse-dependent Avars to be overthrown by their Turkic cattle-herding subjects (cows survive drought way better than horses, and the Turks were more diversified), which is what got the whole ball rolling which culminated in the Ottomans.
It's important to note that I wasn't positing a Jewish Khazar Hungary, merely that Hungary would have a larger Turkic population, some of which was Jewish. But IMO that was the least likely outcome anyway.I think a Jewish Khazar state in Hungary is pushing it, but it's an interesting idea. I don't think we know enough about the level of conversion that occurred among the Khazars.