Turkish/Chilean battlecruisers instead of battleships?

Canada and Agincourt were armoured closer to RN battlecruiser standards than battleships, eliminating 1 main battery turret in Canada and 2 in Agincourt would save enough funds to order the ships with upgraded turbines and more boilers for increased shp, so modified both would have been capable of 25 knots.

Erin true battleship armour so leave her alone and use as historical.

I see Canada operating with 5th BS and Agincourt with Hoods battlecruisers.
 
Canada and Agincourt were armoured closer to RN battlecruiser standards than battleships, eliminating 1 main battery turret in Canada and 2 in Agincourt would save enough funds to order the ships with upgraded turbines and more boilers for increased shp, so modified both would have been capable of 25 knots.

Erin true battleship armour so leave her alone and use as historical.

I see Canada operating with 5th BS and Agincourt with Hoods battlecruisers.

It is notmthat simple, as the shape of the hull would prevent any increase in speed unless completely treated and provided a new hull, which in its turn would mean, building a new ship from scratch. An untreated Dreadnought type hull might give an increase in speed of about one, or at most two knots, unrelated to whatever power you install.
 
Barring the QE's Canada at 22.75k and Agincourt at 22k were the fastest BB's in RN, Canada's hull lines were as good as QE and Agincourt lines better.

RN expected to get 25K out of QE's and were disappointed, Canada and Agincourt would have certainly matched or exceed QE's speed with similar propulsion.
 
HMS Canada was rated for 22.75 knots, but is believed to have hit 24.3 knots in service. That's faster than some of the Queen Elizabeths hit.
 
Canada steam trails 16 May 1918
38247shp=22.7 knots
52685shp=24.3 knots
However I do not believe Canada could have made this speed for any great length of time without damaging her turbines, in any case the stokers would have soon been spent.
HMS Eagle was restricted to 50000 shp so as not damage her turbines.

IMO HMS Canada could have maintained 25 knots with QE type turbines and 3 addition boilers.
If the 21 original boilers had been oil fired 25 knots may have been possible when ship completed, the turbines would still need to be ungraded.
 
Subject to it being affordable I think you might get the desired result if the South American naval arms race took a different track.

IIRC the Brazilians originally wanted 3 armoured cruisers, but eventually ended up with 3 dreadnoughts. These were Minas Gerias and São Paulo displacing about 19,000 tons and armed with twelve 12" which were laid down in 1907 and completed in 1910. The third ship was Rio de Janiero armed with fourteen 12", laid down 1911, but sold to the Turks and then requisitioned by the British which commissioned it into the Royal Navy as Agincourt.

What if they decided to buy 2 Invincible class battle cruisers instead of the Minas Gerias and São Paulo, which they followed up with a modified Lion, Tiger or even a Kongo instead of the OTL Rio de Janiero? Would that not lead to Argentina ordering a pair of battlecruisers instead of the OTL Rivadavia class dreadnoughts and Chile to order battlecruisers instead of the OTL Almirante Latorre class. As the Lattore class was armed with ten 14" IOTL the battlecrusier version would be a Kongo modified to suit Chilean requirements.

I quite like the idea of the TTL HMS Eagle being converted from an incomplete Kongo class battlecruiser. The extra speed would be useful for operating aircraft. IIRC Tiger was 75ft longer than Canada, which would mean a longer flight deck and hangar.
 
RN might have been better off selling first generation 12" gun BB's and BC's to foreign powers, using funds from these sales in turn to build better replacements for RN, ie 13.5" gun ships replacing 12" ships sold aboard.
RN did look at building Orion as 23 knot ships great same they didn't go this route.
Building R's with slower top speed than QE's a very poor choice.
 
RN might have been better off selling first generation 12" gun BB's and BC's to foreign powers, using funds from these sales in turn to build better replacements for RN, ie 13.5" gun ships replacing 12" ships sold aboard

I don't know if that would be a first choice for many countries. HMS Agincourt had more guns than any other battleship for a reason, and HMS Canada had the heaviest broadside of any ship at Jutland. Spain is the only country that seems to have sought out limited dreadnoughts.
 
A bargain basement battleship might have been a better buy for the South American countries rather than new buys. If the RN and others had sold off older ships, how many other countries might have been willing to purchase?
 
Before building a ship, think of her mission. Battlecruisers are intended to scout for the battle line and swat armored cruisers. The South American nations have no battle lines to scout for, and if one side has battleships, and the other, battlecruisers, the BC's can't stand and fight. This is the time of Mahanian naval theory--a navy needs to be able to fight its enemy. BC's are not, under the usual doctrine of the time, IMVHO, useful until you have the battleships for them to support. (Fast battleships, however, might be worthwhile--perhaps at the expense of range.)
 
Before building a ship, think of her mission. Battlecruisers are intended to scout for the battle line and swat armored cruisers. The South American nations have no battle lines to scout for, and if one side has battleships, and the other, battlecruisers, the BC's can't stand and fight. This is the time of Mahanian naval theory--a navy needs to be able to fight its enemy. BC's are not, under the usual doctrine of the time, IMVHO, useful until you have the battleships for them to support. (Fast battleships, however, might be worthwhile--perhaps at the expense of range.)
That has made me reconsider what I wrote in Post 26. The original Brazilian 1905 programme was for 3 pre-dreadnought, 3 armoured cruisers, 3 scout cruisers, 6 destroyers. 12 torpedo boats, 3 submarines, a collier and a training ship. According to the Wikipaedia entry the modified naval programme that included dreadnoughts had to cost no more than the original programme so the armoured cruisers were dropped completely and the numbers of smaller warships was changed.

What if Brazil was richer and/or the Brazilian Parliament was willing to authorise the initial purchase of two Minas Gerias class dreadnoughts and a pair of battle cruisers? The latter would be based on Minas Gerias, but sacrifice the two wing turrets for more powerful machinery. Then they order the OTL Rio de Janiero plus a battlecruiser version, which would sacrifice two or three 12-inch gun turrets for more powerful machinery.

That would force Argentina and Chile to buy dreadnoughts and battlecruisers. I think Argentina would be rich enough to afford 2 dreadnoughts and 2 battlecruisers, but Chile might have to buy one dreadnought and one battle cruiser instead of the two dreadnoughts they bought IOTL.
 
That has made me reconsider what I wrote in Post 26. The original Brazilian 1905 programme was for 3 pre-dreadnought, 3 armoured cruisers, 3 scout cruisers, 6 destroyers. 12 torpedo boats, 3 submarines, a collier and a training ship. According to the Wikipaedia entry the modified naval programme that included dreadnoughts had to cost no more than the original programme so the armoured cruisers were dropped completely and the numbers of smaller warships was changed.

What if Brazil was richer and/or the Brazilian Parliament was willing to authorise the initial purchase of two Minas Gerias class dreadnoughts and a pair of battle cruisers? The latter would be based on Minas Gerias, but sacrifice the two wing turrets for more powerful machinery. Then they order the OTL Rio de Janiero plus a battlecruiser version, which would sacrifice two or three 12-inch gun turrets for more powerful machinery.

That would force Argentina and Chile to buy dreadnoughts and battlecruisers. I think Argentina would be rich enough to afford 2 dreadnoughts and 2 battlecruisers, but Chile might have to buy one dreadnought and one battle cruiser instead of the two dreadnoughts they bought IOTL.

You basically described my POD. Minas Gerias class per OTL, but after two dreadnoughts battleships, Brazil wants dreadnought cruisers to round out the fleet, so Agincourt is laid down as a battlecruiser...the 4th ship probably never gets built as per OTL. Then Chile responds by ordering two vessels, one battlecruiser, one dreadnought.

I have no particular reason to justify why the Turks would order HMS Erin as a battlecruiser though.
 
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