Turkey joins allies 1943

lionhead

Searched but seen that only Turkey joining Axis has been done before.

What if Turkey, after seeing Operation Husky(invasion of Sicily) succeed decided to join the allies on August 17 1943, getting what financial and material aid they requested(as per the Hardihood Agreement) in exchange for a full scale attack on Bulgaria and the Greek islands?

Lets also assume they have moved their forces ready on the Bulgarian and Greek borders and only a garrison or 2 on the Soviet border, not fearing a Soviet invasion when allied to the British and Americans.

What would that mean for the war? My guess would be mainly a communist free Bulgaria for starters but i have no idea what kind of forces where in the Balkans and Greece in 1943 to oppose the mediocre but fully functioning Turkish armed forces.

Would it mean a faster advance for the Soviets?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Certainly wouldn't have hurt, but

the Allies don't have a lot to spare in terms of operating forces to support the Turks; the 1943 Dodecanese campaign is evidence of that.

Given the strains of either augmenting or replacing the Italians (before or after the armistice) I could see the Germans withdrawing from the Aegean, certainly; my guess is they would try and hold the Peloponnese, but if not, they could fall back to the Corinth Canal line.

Given the topography, Greece is pretty good defensive country, against a threat from the south or the east.

The Bulgarian situation was very involved; my guess is the Soviets still probably could have imposed who they wanted in 1944, but maybe there's someone closer to a Tito there...doubt the monarchy will survive, in any case.

If the Turks came in, then Allied (presumably RAF) and the US 15th AF would be well placed to beat up the Romanian oil industry from multiple directions...

Again, given what the Germans were able to accomplish in response to the Anglo-Italian operations in the Dodecanese in 1943, I'd be surprised if the Turks would have agreed at any point.

Best,
 
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Carl Schwamberger

With some changes in mobilization the US could have started up a LL program to partially rearm the Turks. Over a six months period some of the German weapons like the tanks would have been replaced with US made models. Ditto for aircraft & automotive transport, and communications kit. In the second half of 1943 the US rearmed the better part of eight French divisions & three corps HQ, along with a wing each of bomber and fighters. Also a Italian division was requipped with US kit and a assortment of of other Allied formations such as the Brazilians. Shaking out partial equipment for one or two more corps does not look excessively difficult.
 
The Kiat

The Kiat

What would Turkey get out of all this? If they join the war against Germany, the only thing they can really hope for is a few acres of Bulgaria.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
There is that...and given the fate of the

The Kiat said:
What would Turkey get out of all this? If they join the war against Germany, the only thing they can really hope for is a few acres of Bulgaria.
Click to expand...

There is that...and given the fate of the 234th Brigade, I can see why they thought "um, better not."

Best,
 

zert

The Kiat said:
What would Turkey get out of all this? If they join the war against Germany, the only thing they can really hope for is a few acres of Bulgaria.
Click to expand...


Give them the Dodecanese I guess. That is about the only territory that could conceivably be given.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Unfortunately, in September-October of 1943,

zert said:
Give them the Dodecanese I guess. That is about the only territory that could conceivably be given.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, in September-October of 1943, the Turks had just seen what the British could provide as a maximum effort in the Dodecanese get slaughtered, basically to the last man.

Not a real confidence-building exercise.

Best,
 

zert

TFSmith121 said:
Unfortunately, in September-October of 1943, the Turks had just seen what the British could provide as a maximum effort in the Dodecanese get slaughtered, basically to the last man.

Not a real confidence-building exercise.

Best,
Click to expand...

Ok, but the POD was August, so that campaign had not occurred just yet.
 
Alamo

Alamo

BlairWitch749 said:
Turkey had no air defenses and were terrified of bombing. In 1943 the lw could visit Istanbul quite vigorously
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From what I've read, the Turkish Air Force wouldn't have been a pushover - a bit of googling reveals that they actually had a fair number of modern fighter aircraft in 1943:

5 Spitfires
40 MS.406s
68 P-40s
71 FW-190s
119 Hurricanes
 

Aber

Plus it would make sense to move forward any Allied Air Force units in Egypt and the Middle East.
 

zert

Aber said:
Plus it would make sense to move forward any Allied Air Force units in Egypt and the Middle East.
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Those plans to reinforce Turkey as well as lessen raids transit times would be good. The Allies could also help to ship in supplies out of range of most Axis planes.
 

lionhead

I think the question is what their armed forces is compared to that of Bulgaria and what is present at Greece. I think their armed forces are indeed not push-overs and can definitly inflict damage to the Axis in the Balkans.

Plus the Turkish fleet(battlecruiser Yavuz had some nice guns) can help the Soviets out in the black sea at Sevastopol and also damage Bulgarian and Romanian coasts.

All in all they can't do a whole lot but once the Axis forces start falling apart i thought it might mean more of the balkans liberated by the Allies. At least Bulgaria.
 

BlairWitch749

Banned
Alamo said:
From what I've read, the Turkish Air Force wouldn't have been a pushover - a bit of googling reveals that they actually had a fair number of modern fighter aircraft in 1943:

5 Spitfires
40 MS.406s
68 P-40s
71 FW-190s
119 Hurricanes
Click to expand...

British and German training liaisons rated turkey's pilots as poor with no ability to fly at night or in bad weather

Both sides assumed them to basically be a paper air force only
 

kclcmdr

BlairWitch749 said:
Turkey had no air defenses and were terrified of bombing. In 1943 the lw could visit instanbul quite vigorously
Click to expand...
Or possibly send a panzer Division that was diverted from France into Greece among with a motorized brigade and a coupla Infantry Divisions and maybe get some Bulgarian Divisions to assist in the drive towards Istanbul...?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
True, but despite what was promised in HARDIHOOD

zert said:
Ok, but the POD was August, so that campaign had not occurred just yet.
Click to expand...

True, but despite what was promised in HARDIHOOD (a British corps of two armored divisions, 25 RAF & Commonwealth fighter squadrons) the Turks were, presumably, looking for some evidence the British could deliver before they agreed.

Given the reality of everything the Allies were trying to accomplish in the summer-autumn of 1943, my guess is the reality of what the British could have expeditiously moved into Turkey in the event of a Turkish agreement to enter the war at that point, the historical OOB of what went to the Dodecanese would have been analogous to the initial deployments, which means the Germans presumably would have been in the position of hitting Istanbul pretty hard, at least initially, from the air...

Again, not a real confidence builder for the Turks, and I doubt any potential territorial gains (the Dodecanese, territory in Bulgaria, or even Cyprus) would have been enough to tip the scales for Inonu, Saracoglu, Cakmak et al...

Best,
 
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Malta

Actually, Turkey and the 'Balkans Entente' came very, VERY close to joining the Allies shortly after Munich. There was an Anglo-Turkish treaty and everything though they faced antagonism from France (The Turks wanted the Frnch included) who reacted poorly to perceived Turkish threat to The French Syrian Mandate. There were also complications with loans by the British to the Turks at first but I believe they managed to iron them out. The Germans tried to break the Turks from the Allies Immediatly but were OUTRIGHT rebuffed by Ismet and senior Turkish leaders.

In the end what stopped the Turks from joining the war was the Nazi-Soviet Pact, as the Turks wanted to be friendly to the Soviets who had supported them during their own civil war. The Anglo-Franco-Turkish Pact had a clause that the Turks could opt out if it seemed like war would arise with the USSR so they did and remained neutral until the final days. I suppose they kept neutral in the face of being dragged down by German victories at the time frame.

THEREGO

No Molotov-Von Ribbentrop Pact = Turkey joins Allies.
 

zert

Well even if the Turks were ill trained if they were supplimented by Allied planes and pilots they could get better. Send in some instructors and they might hold their own until even more Allied squadrons. Not saying they might not get stomped in the beginning but in time they might prospure.
 

BlairWitch749

Banned
zert said:
Well even if the Turks were ill trained if they were supplimented by Allied planes and pilots they could get better. Send in some instructors and they might hold their own until even more Allied squadrons. Not saying they might not get stomped in the beginning but in time they might prospure.
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They had German and British instructors and were still rated poor

Without an early warning network the Germans would bomb with impunity
 
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