Turkey declares war on allies 1941

TTL's Axis Victory scenarios will stereotypically have the Mediterranean split down the middle between Italy and Turkey
 
Istanbul straddles 2 sides of the Bosporous, I don't see why Greece would get the part that's in Anatolia.

Oh, I don’t think that Greece would get the city itself. The USSR would.

I posted a thread about such a scenario, and someone suggested that, rather than bringing back the name Constantinople, Stalin could name the city after some prominent Soviet official or communist, in the same way that Königsberg became Kaliningrad during this period of time.

Imagine how Christians and Muslims alike would react should the city be renamed something like Marxgrad.
 

kernals12

Banned
Oh, I don’t think that Greece would get the city itself. The USSR would.

I posted a thread about such a scenario, and someone suggested that, rather than bringing back the name Constantinople, Stalin could name the city after some prominent Soviet official or communist, in the same way that Königsberg became Kaliningrad during this period of time.

Imagine how Christians and Muslims alike would react should the city be renamed something like Marxgrad.
No way Churchill or FDR would approve of this.
 
No way Churchill or FDR would approve of this.

I forgot to share the thread that I mentioned, but I will just quote someone who responded to a similar concern:

The British was to weak to fight WWIII vs the USSR in 1945, and certainly wasn't in a position to fight a war vs Germany, Italy AND the USSR at once in 1940-41.

even before WWI, Russian possession of Constantinople stop being such a big deal because of British possession of Cyprus blocks Russia/Soviet Navy from entering the Mediterranean -anyway-.
 

kernals12

Banned
Soviets try to occupy all they can in the last months of the war.

I assume some sort of partition would be discussed at Yalta.
They'd probably dust off the Treaty of Sevres, with a few modifications (getting rid of all the "zone of influence" stuff since imperialism was now out of fashion)
 
Early-1941? British logistical studies projected that, given the infrastructure along the Anatolian-Palestinian coastline, the Germans could support four panzer and six infantry divisions through Turkey and into the Middle East and Egypt. British plans of the time were based on the expectation that the Germans would undertake an invasion of Turkey (and feared a quick Turkish collapse, although how realistic that is something of an unknown) rather then the Turks allying with the Germans, but that's an unimportant detail IATL. If the Germans are willing to forego Barbarossa and exploit the Turkish alliance to assault the Middle East, they now have a far better means of getting at the British Empire then across the wastes of the Egyptian desert.

Whether this would be enough politically for the British to quit the war is an open question. It also requires the Germans to see the opportunity in such an endeavor, but there's no evidence they did OTL.

Do no underestimate the payload of the Avro Lancaster heavy bomber, Britain has thousands on hand and Bomber Harris in command.

What are you talking about? No there weren't. The Avro Lancaster only first flew in January 1941 and didn't enter operational service until 1942, with the first squadron equipping in February and the first raids conducted in March. Similarly, Harris wasn't placed in command of Bomber Command until February 1942 so that's also nonsense.
 
What are you talking about? No there weren't. The Avro Lancaster only first flew in January 1941 and didn't enter operational service until 1942, with the first squadron equipping in February and the first raids conducted in March. Similarly, Harris wasn't placed in command of Bomber Command until February 1942 so that's also nonsense.
Sorry, they have thousands of Halifax bombers and Bomber Harris will be in command in a few months. Big whoop.
 
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How mich do you see post-WW2 Turkey, if it falls under the Anglo-American sphere of influence, see a revival of Islam as a reaction to how secular Kemalism ended in Turkey being occupied when it joined the "wrong" side of WW2?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
Do no underestimate the payload of the Avro Lancaster heavy bomber, Britain has thousands on hand and Bomber Harris in command.
1 by 1943 when allies gain the upper hand most likely turkey will switch sides , their goals of expanding their foothold in Europe at the price of Greeks achieved
2 burning alive civilians in crowded cities [ which Harris specialized in] is one thing, while using high level bombing to hit dug in infantry is quite another
3 I never underestimated the Halifax, infact my favorite version is one flown by Biggles !
 

Khanzeer

Banned
How mich do you see post-WW2 Turkey, if it falls under the Anglo-American sphere of influence, see a revival of Islam as a reaction to how secular Kemalism ended in Turkey being occupied when it joined the "wrong" side of WW2?
Good question but likely be minimal IMHo although most people would not have predicted rise of ayotallah in Iran either
Problem is since their initial conversion Turks have resented Arab control over their destiny and identity as muslims since seljuk times, a wahabi style revival will not help their issue.Even if it's a Islamic revival it will very much be in a nationalistic context without panislamic tendencies
 
British logistical studies projected that, given the infrastructure along the Anatolian-Palestinian coastline, the Germans could support four panzer and six infantry divisions through Turkey and into the Middle East and Egypt.

Do you happen to have a link?
 
IMHO, if for some odd reason Turkey did decide to join the Axis, it would be in the very narrow window after the fall of France but before the debacle in the Battle of Britain, and it would probably require, besides an altered Turkish internal political situation, that team Axis appears even more dominant than OTL: Spain joins the Axis, Mers el Kebir ends in a draw, Malta invaded by Italy at the outset, a wide-spread Arab revolt against the British, maybe even Japan attacking early etc.
 
the Turkish leadership seemed to have a full, realistic grasp of their reduced circumstances, also it sometimes gets forgotten that Italy was their second great enemy behind USSR.

if any Turkish leader still dreamt of glory allying with the Reich? quick end to the Iraqi coup likely changed their view?

Early-1941? British logistical studies projected that, given the infrastructure along the Anatolian-Palestinian coastline, the Germans could support four panzer and six infantry divisions through Turkey and into the Middle East and Egypt. British plans of the time were based on the expectation that the Germans would undertake an invasion of Turkey (and feared a quick Turkish collapse, although how realistic that is something of an unknown) rather then the Turks allying with the Germans, but that's an unimportant detail IATL. If the Germans are willing to forego Barbarossa and exploit the Turkish alliance to assault the Middle East, they now have a far better means of getting at the British Empire then across the wastes of the Egyptian desert.

Whether this would be enough politically for the British to quit the war is an open question. It also requires the Germans to see the opportunity in such an endeavor, but there's no evidence they did OTL.

the alternative to failed Iraqi coup could be quick arrival in (Vichy) Syria and supplanting Italians in the Dodecanese? (similar to their positioning themselves between Bulgarians and Turks)

to what end? sitting on top of oil pipelines out of Iraq, and adjacent to restive Palestine and Iraq? implications not lost on UK.

they would have nearly surrounded Turkey also and have access to the airfields built to bomb Baku?
 

Khanzeer

Banned
What is this based on? When have turks resented islam and been 'controlled by arabs'
Um ..resented arab control and their attempts to control their Muslim identity
Never said they resented islam as a religion.
This is analogous to Roman's/ italians and germans, initially they fought each other as religious enemies but once germans accepted christianity they became the military might of the empire while italians the original western Christians took a back seat and pretty soon the "holy Roman empire " was neither very holy or very Roman.

Similarly turks initially fought Arab muslims ferociously on the eastern frontier but once they started to get beaten they gradually joined the fold of islam.Renowed for their military might were valued as soldiers.Then See the troubled relationship of abbassid arabs and seljuks ever since turks were recruited as body guards of caliph, rather than being controlled by their quraishi overlords they turned the tables on them and became the kingmakers themselves.
Very soon abbassid caliph was just a nominal figurehead with Turks forming their own kingdoms from indus to nile.

Later ottomans and ibn Saud issues since 18th century I'm sure u are aware of
 
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Do no underestimate the payload of the Avro Lancaster heavy bomber, Britain has thousands on hand and Bomber Harris in command.

May have made Berlin into rubble, but that didn't get a Flag on the Reichstag
The%2BSoviet%2Bflag%2Bover%2Bthe%2BReichstag%252C%2B1945%2B%25281%2529.jpg

That took Troops
 

Khanzeer

Banned
And the Allies don't apply "Unconditional Surrender" to the Turks because.....
They realize the bigger threat to their geostrategic interests are Germany and Japan
So just as a regime change in Italy got them off the hook similarly a coup in ankara would probably suffice rather than wasting tens of thousands of lives in anatolia for a campaign which will not change the outcome of the war
Ofcourse they will likely be punished but to keep the Greek communists in check they might have to give up a pro ALLIED Kurdistan or more territory to Armenian SSR
 
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