Tsargrad possible?

We all know that throughout much of Russia's history, there have been wars of aggresion waged at Constantinople. This would give Russia a port to the Med, and by extension the rest of the worlds oceans. I am not sure when it is more plausible for this to happen, whether in the Crimean war, or one of the subsequent wars with the Ottomans.

What I'm wondering is the effect of if this had happened on the world. Would we see a Russian Superpower? An Anglo-Russian war? This would have been interesting in the late 1800's as Russia may have moved against India.

Or would this have resulted in an all European War against Russia? I am forgetting my sources, But I beleve that this was actually a fear in Russia in the 1800's.
 
I suppose if you keep Europe out of any war it is possible. But the conquest and occupation would be very bloody and their hold would be very tenous. There is really no way Russia annexes the entire Ottoman Empire, they might just hold the coasts of the Black Sea, with perhaps a slightly stronger hold the Orthodox Slavic Balkans.

Russia maybe holds onto it for a handful of decades at best but there is no way it is maintained long term, Europe and the Muslim world won't accept it.
 

Stalker

Banned
Russia realy had aways wanted to put Her hands on the Straits. Control over Bosphorus was the clue for the whole of Balkans. I don't think that Russia woud prefer to annex the whole of Ottoman Empire after 1800 but what they really wanted was that very strуtch of land around Bosphorus with Constantinople, Adrianople and Chalcedon.
Russia had never had real power to force Turkey into complete submission, and Her attack of Bosphorus would surely hav provoked war with Austria having the plans of her own for Balkans, and Britain which would never let those "bloody Russians" have Constantinople they had always been so obsessed with.:rolleyes:
On the other hand, there was one option for Russia to get her hands on that piece of sweet cake. But that would have happened only in early 20th century. If Russian had avoided Revolution and remain a strong Ally, she would have very great chances to finally get the Straits with the consent from Britain, France and the USA - if I remember correctly, there were such preliminary agreement with Britain ready to give such a consession if Russia grant independence to Poland in after-war settlement. Russia would likely to grant that independence even without too much pressure, by the way.
So, if Russia remains one of the Entente victors, such an exchange (Poland for European part of Ottoman Empire, Constantinople and the stretch of and along the Straits) would be most likely.
The only condition for that was if Russia coud take them from Turkey. Gallipoli showed that the Turks at least could perform excellent fighting discipine and stubborness, especially on their own land. There were the plans for operation in Bosphorus prepared by the Russian General Staff but how real they were, I don't know.
 
Russia realy had aways wanted to put Her hands on the Straits. Control over Bosphorus was the clue for the whole of Balkans. I don't think that Russia woud prefer to annex the whole of Ottoman Empire after 1800 but what they really wanted was that very strуtch of land around Bosphorus with Constantinople, Adrianople and Chalcedon.
Russia had never had real power to force Turkey into complete submission, and Her attack of Bosphorus would surely hav provoked war with Austria having the plans of her own for Balkans, and Britain which would never let those "bloody Russians" have Constantinople they had always been so obsessed with.:rolleyes:
On the other hand, there was one option for Russia to get her hands on that piece of sweet cake. But that would have happened only in early 20th century. If Russian had avoided Revolution and remain a strong Ally, she would have very great chances to finally get the Straits with the consent from Britain, France and the USA - if I remember correctly, there were such preliminary agreement with Britain ready to give such a consession if Russia grant independence to Poland in after-war settlement. Russia would likely to grant that independence even without too much pressure, by the way.
So, if Russia remains one of the Entente victors, such an exchange (Poland for European part of Ottoman Empire, Constantinople and the stretch of and along the Straits) would be most likely.
The only condition for that was if Russia coud take them from Turkey. Gallipoli showed that the Turks at least could perform excellent fighting discipine and stubborness, especially on their own land. There were the plans for operation in Bosphorus prepared by the Russian General Staff but how real they were, I don't know.

I would agree, although even that is iffy - the other Entente partners began to backpedal from that promise as much as possible as the war progressed, so it's never a given. Also, even without a revolution, Russia still might not be in a position to try.

Also, what would be the nature of Russian control? There population of the city and surrounding area is fairly large and cosmopolitan - Russian rule doesn't really have anything to offer that would appeal.
 
I would agree, although even that is iffy - the other Entente partners began to backpedal from that promise as much as possible as the war progressed, so it's never a given. Also, even without a revolution, Russia still might not be in a position to try.

Also, what would be the nature of Russian control? There population of the city and surrounding area is fairly large and cosmopolitan - Russian rule doesn't really have anything to offer that would appeal.

I honestly think the few years of Russian rule for the city would be pretty horrifying. There might be a Turkish diaspora (size would be variable) and if the Tsars and church got really so far up their own ass about the whole "third Rome" thing maybe even a crackdown against Islam. A good example of a semi-worst case scenario would be Koingsberg/Leningrad.
 
I very much doubt Britain would be willing to let Russia have Constantinople post-war even if they never said so much during the war.
There's just too much anti-Russianism and too much Greek love (haha).
Finally I'd think they would try and use logic to try to convince the others Russia should not have it- its too far from Russia, not connected to Russian land, not ethnically Russian in any way, etc...
The ethnic thing would put the Americans against them having it too.

To do it I'd think you'd need a much earlier time period. Perhaps a Russian-Ottoman war when Britain (and maybe France) is busy fighting elsewhere.
 

Stalker

Banned
I honestly think the few years of Russian rule for the city would be pretty horrifying. There might be a Turkish diaspora (size would be variable) and if the Tsars and church got really so far up their own ass about the whole "third Rome" thing maybe even a crackdown against Islam. A good example of a semi-worst case scenario would be Koingsberg/Leningrad.
In my opinion, it sounds unlikely. Unless, there's too much in a way of Greek fanaticism on behalf of the Greek Orthodox Church that may call for crusade against the Isamists. By that moment Russia has had a long experience deaing with Muslim ethic groups within the Empire, having mainly successfuly and bloodlessly incorporated them into the Empire, and with certain cubjects it had even had protectorate over several formlly independent territories like Emirate of Bukhara or Khanate of Khiva. Similar politics was carried out in Caucasus.
So, I'd say, after several years of direct Russian military rule in Constantinople, an autonomy could have been granted to this Imperial subject. However likely, it woud be a terrible mistake if domination in that autonomy had been granted to Greek. That migh even have provoked massacre. The Ottoman system should be preserved (with Qadi instead of Sultan as chief executive accountable to Russian General-governer) except that Christians are spared of any kind of jizya if it still existed in late Ottoman Empire.
Yes, Britain for sure would negotiate against Russians in Constantinople but if Russians had been successful with their landing operation and occupation of Constantinople, Britain would be in no position to force them out and waging war against the Ally... no chance. They would be forced to give their consent in terms of status quo but surely raise the issue of Poland - no doubt about that. And Russia, as I mentioned above, was prepared to make acquiescence here.
 
In my opinion, the best chance for Russia to gain Constantinople would be in Alliance with Napoleon in with a PoD in 1810-1812 ( maybe if Napoleon wed the Csar's sister instead of Marie-Louise ).

That would lead to a French-Russian alliance ( with AH and Prussia forced to provide troops ) against Uk+Ottoman.
 
In my opinion, it sounds unlikely. Unless, there's too much in a way of Greek fanaticism on behalf of the Greek Orthodox Church that may call for crusade against the Isamists. By that moment Russia has had a long experience deaing with Muslim ethic groups within the Empire, having mainly successfuly and bloodlessly incorporated them into the Empire, and with certain cubjects it had even had protectorate over several formlly independent territories like Emirate of Bukhara or Khanate of Khiva. Similar politics was carried out in Caucasus.
So, I'd say, after several years of direct Russian military rule in Constantinople, an autonomy could have been granted to this Imperial subject. However likely, it woud be a terrible mistake if domination in that autonomy had been granted to Greek. That migh even have provoked massacre. The Ottoman system should be preserved (with Qadi instead of Sultan as chief executive accountable to Russian General-governer) except that Christians are spared of any kind of jizya if it still existed in late Ottoman Empire.
Yes, Britain for sure would negotiate against Russians in Constantinople but if Russians had been successful with their landing operation and occupation of Constantinople, Britain would be in no position to force them out and waging war against the Ally... no chance. They would be forced to give their consent in terms of status quo but surely raise the issue of Poland - no doubt about that. And Russia, as I mentioned above, was prepared to make acquiescence here.

No I know Russia actually has a pretty good record when it comes to Islam and religious tolerence, but this isn't some central asian provice of Kazan, this is Constant-freaking-nople.

While it is unlikely and the odds are low, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tsar and Patriarch and the church got all caught up in some Orthodox "Third Rome" fanantiscm wave and made life hard for the Muslim Turks and easier for the Orthodox Greeks while promoting Russian immigration.

Its unlikely but possible.
 
No I know Russia actually has a pretty good record when it comes to Islam and religious tolerence, but this isn't some central asian provice of Kazan, this is Constant-freaking-nople.

Kazan is a city in central russia.

While it is unlikely and the odds are low, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tsar and Patriarch and the church got all caught up in some Orthodox "Third Rome" fanantiscm wave and made life hard for the Muslim Turks and easier for the Orthodox Greeks while promoting Russian immigration.

The Russian Empire was neither a crusader realm nor a nationalistic balkan state. Balkan-style ethnical cleansing would be quite unlikely, although a more difficult life for the (former ruling class) muslims would be inevitable.
 
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