Tsar Nicholas has a healthy son.

[desmirelle]

The king had the final say; the government could only advise. During a brutal war, and on the heels of changing all Germanic names to English ones, asylum to an abdicated tsarb and family when G5 didn't really believe them in danger was a bit much to g5. Now, later on.......or if the Tsar hadn't abdicated, sheltering a reigning monarch is a whole other scenario.

PS:. Dickie Mountbatten, I believe, is the source of the "switched Georges" and it was an attempt to make leaving four princesses and their ailing brother to be shot in a basement not to sound as bad as it did.

 

[VVD0D95]

The king had the final say; the government could only advise. During a brutal war, and on the heels of changing all Germanic names to English ones, asylum to an abdicated tsarb and family when G5 didn't really believe them in danger was a bit much to g5. Now, later on.......or if the Tsar hadn't abdicated, sheltering a reigning monarch is a whole other scenario.

PS:. Dickie Mountbatten, I believe, is the source of the "switched Georges" and it was an attempt to make leaving four princesses and their ailing brother to be shot in a basement not to sound as bad as it did.

That is quite interesting when one considers parliamentarians who view parliament as sovereign aha

 

[JonasResende]

They are actually following the line of succession.Nicholas abdicated both his and his son's rights to the throne to his younger brother Michael.

My apologies for being late to this party. It's dwelling on semantics, but Nikolai had no right to abdicate in Alexei's name, since his own abdication, several minutes before, made him, formerly Tsar of all the Russias, merely HIM, Grand Duke Nikolai Alexandrovich (or whatever title he might have had), and thus Alexei's subject. Which means then, that his abdication in Alexei's name was actually committing treason against his (not yet annointed) monarch.

Now, with that little detail out of the way, if Nikolai abdicates as OTL, his son is going to be bordering on 17/18 (unsure what the majority age was in Imperial Russia), which means this Grand Duke X (let's call him Alexander or Yuri) is on the cusp of not needing a regency. Most likely, either the Duma says 'screw it' and declares him of age to rule prematurely, or they impose a council of ministers to restrict his movements. Either way, that said, Nicky and Alicky are going to be on the first train out of Russia, they don't want their views influencing the new emperor. Knowing Alix's clingy nature, her daughters will probably be kept alongside them (or at least she'll fight for it to happen), and given Alexei's health, Nikolai will fight for that.

Then, we move onto the reign of Tsar Alexander IV/Yuri (III?). Russia's dodged a bullet with not getting Alexei as Tsar, since by all accounts, due to his health, he was petted and fussed over, spoiled, indulged by his parents and sisters. If the boy has anything of Olga's intelligence (IIRC she was labelled as one of the most intelligent of the tsar's daughters), then Russia's in for in an interesting time. He's young enough that he can still be indoctrinated with the constitutional monarchy idea, but old enough to know his own mind, most likely, he'll say 'okay, dad tried that, he's living in Paris now', and try to work within the system. (But I could also be giving him too much credit or brains for that matter. Nikolai himself was said to be like a pillow, he bore the imprint of the last to sit on him, and Russia might not be able to handle a second emperor who plays that card) - he needs to have Alexander II's brains, Pyotr Velikiy's strength of will and Ekaterina Velikaya's energy for reform (a tall order to say the least)

 

[VVD0D95]

My apologies for being late to this party. It's dwelling on semantics, but Nikolai had no right to abdicate in Alexei's name, since his own abdication, several minutes before, made him, formerly Tsar of all the Russias, merely HIM, Grand Duke Nikolai Alexandrovich (or whatever title he might have had), and thus Alexei's subject. Which means then, that his abdication in Alexei's name was actually committing treason against his (not yet annointed) monarch.

Now, with that little detail out of the way, if Nikolai abdicates as OTL, his son is going to be bordering on 17/18 (unsure what the majority age was in Imperial Russia), which means this Grand Duke X (let's call him Alexander or Yuri) is on the cusp of not needing a regency. Most likely, either the Duma says 'screw it' and declares him of age to rule prematurely, or they impose a council of ministers to restrict his movements. Either way, that said, Nicky and Alicky are going to be on the first train out of Russia, they don't want their views influencing the new emperor. Knowing Alix's clingy nature, her daughters will probably be kept alongside them (or at least she'll fight for it to happen), and given Alexei's health, Nikolai will fight for that.

Then, we move onto the reign of Tsar Alexander IV/Yuri (III?). Russia's dodged a bullet with not getting Alexei as Tsar, since by all accounts, due to his health, he was petted and fussed over, spoiled, indulged by his parents and sisters. If the boy has anything of Olga's intelligence (IIRC she was labelled as one of the most intelligent of the tsar's daughters), then Russia's in for in an interesting time. He's young enough that he can still be indoctrinated with the constitutional monarchy idea, but old enough to know his own mind, most likely, he'll say 'okay, dad tried that, he's living in Paris now', and try to work within the system. (But I could also be giving him too much credit or brains for that matter. Nikolai himself was said to be like a pillow, he bore the imprint of the last to sit on him, and Russia might not be able to handle a second emperor who plays that card) - he needs to have Alexander II's brains, Pyotr Velikiy's strength of will and Ekaterina Velikaya's energy for reform (a tall order to say the least)

Alright very interesting. Let's say that he does have Alexander's brains and the energy for reform, could his appointment as tsar stem off or defeat the Bolshevik issue?

 

[Behemoth]

IIRC, the age of majority in Imperial Russia was 16 years old.

 

[JonasResende]

Alright very interesting. Let's say that he does have Alexander's brains and the energy for reform, could his appointment as tsar stem off or defeat the Bolshevik issue?

Much depends on his personality. If he's like grandma Marie (social butterfly) and grandma Alice (dedicated to improving the lot of ordinary folk (her establishment of hospitals and interest in Hesse-Darmstadt helped a lot, but annoyed her mother, particularly her interest in gynaecology, so much so that Victoria ordered her other daughters 'don't discuss these sorts of things with Alice, no matter how much she pesters', and named a heifer in the royal herd 'Alice' to illustrate her opinion of her daughter's interests)), then could work. If he's like mom and dad, reclusive and snobbish (don't know what word to use, but that's the one that springs easiest to mind when I think of Alicky's behavior), then not so much. Part of the reason they made themselves as unpopular as they did was because they isolated themselves, in a court (to quote Aronson) "where the tsar was the sun in a vast solar system, nothing happened or didn't without his approval", so OTL, it was effectively, a solar system where the sun had collapsed.

So if Sasha/Yuri goes that route, withdrawing from public life, being unsociable etc, he's not gonna last long in Petrograd. So, if grandma Marie gets to stay, she wasn't a liberal (she'd gone wholeheartedly absolutist, but she was from a liberal family) but she was popular (simply because she was visible in a way Nicky and Alicky weren't), Mikhail's regent (Alicky didn't like Natalia Wulffert but as "former tsarina" her opinion doesn't count for much) who's brave and popular, and they can draw him out and put him on show more than his parents or grandfather ever was, then we might be looking at a very rocky start for a "constitutional monarchy" Russia.

 

[darthfanta]

My apologies for being late to this party. It's dwelling on semantics, but Nikolai had no right to abdicate in Alexei's name, since his own abdication, several minutes before, made him, formerly Tsar of all the Russias, merely HIM, Grand Duke Nikolai Alexandrovich (or whatever title he might have had), and thus Alexei's subject. Which means then, that his abdication in Alexei's name was actually committing treason against his (not yet annointed) monarch.

Now, with that little detail out of the way, if Nikolai abdicates as OTL, his son is going to be bordering on 17/18 (unsure what the majority age was in Imperial Russia), which means this Grand Duke X (let's call him Alexander or Yuri) is on the cusp of not needing a regency. Most likely, either the Duma says 'screw it' and declares him of age to rule prematurely, or they impose a council of ministers to restrict his movements. Either way, that said, Nicky and Alicky are going to be on the first train out of Russia, they don't want their views influencing the new emperor. Knowing Alix's clingy nature, her daughters will probably be kept alongside them (or at least she'll fight for it to happen), and given Alexei's health, Nikolai will fight for that.

Then, we move onto the reign of Tsar Alexander IV/Yuri (III?). Russia's dodged a bullet with not getting Alexei as Tsar, since by all accounts, due to his health, he was petted and fussed over, spoiled, indulged by his parents and sisters. If the boy has anything of Olga's intelligence (IIRC she was labelled as one of the most intelligent of the tsar's daughters), then Russia's in for in an interesting time. He's young enough that he can still be indoctrinated with the constitutional monarchy idea, but old enough to know his own mind, most likely, he'll say 'okay, dad tried that, he's living in Paris now', and try to work within the system. (But I could also be giving him too much credit or brains for that matter. Nikolai himself was said to be like a pillow, he bore the imprint of the last to sit on him, and Russia might not be able to handle a second emperor who plays that card) - he needs to have Alexander II's brains, Pyotr Velikiy's strength of will and Ekaterina Velikaya's energy for reform (a tall order to say the least)

I think it's rather unlikely he'll be emperor.There's a reason why Michael from otl never became one.

 

[VVD0D95]

Much depends on his personality. If he's like grandma Marie (social butterfly) and grandma Alice (dedicated to improving the lot of ordinary folk (her establishment of hospitals and interest in Hesse-Darmstadt helped a lot, but annoyed her mother, particularly her interest in gynaecology, so much so that Victoria ordered her other daughters 'don't discuss these sorts of things with Alice, no matter how much she pesters', and named a heifer in the royal herd 'Alice' to illustrate her opinion of her daughter's interests)), then could work. If he's like mom and dad, reclusive and snobbish (don't know what word to use, but that's the one that springs easiest to mind when I think of Alicky's behavior), then not so much. Part of the reason they made themselves as unpopular as they did was because they isolated themselves, in a court (to quote Aronson) "where the tsar was the sun in a vast solar system, nothing happened or didn't without his approval", so OTL, it was effectively, a solar system where the sun had collapsed.

So if Sasha/Yuri goes that route, withdrawing from public life, being unsociable etc, he's not gonna last long in Petrograd. So, if grandma Marie gets to stay, she wasn't a liberal (she'd gone wholeheartedly absolutist, but she was from a liberal family) but she was popular (simply because she was visible in a way Nicky and Alicky weren't), Mikhail's regent (Alicky didn't like Natalia Wulffert but as "former tsarina" her opinion doesn't count for much) who's brave and popular, and they can draw him out and put him on show more than his parents or grandfather ever was, then we might be looking at a very rocky start for a "constitutional monarchy" Russia.

Alright interesting do you think it is possible he can adapt to changing circumstances whilst also trying to preserve some power for the crown?

 

[JonasResende]

I think it's rather unlikely he'll be emperor.There's a reason why Michael from otl never became one.

No one's letting Mikhail become emperor of anything. He's regent, although, personally, the empress dowager had a near two decade apprenticeship in politics, and seems to have had more brains than Nicky and Alicky put together - so I could see Grandmamushka being the real power. That said, Mikhail might persuade his nephew to consent to his marriage, and that even though it's morganatic (I think letting him acknowledge it as anything more is a stretch - although with Russia's new constitution etc, it might be regarded as equal under Russian Law albeit not necessarily Imperial House Law.) it bears the imperial stamp of approval - maybe as a way for Mikhail/Marie to stick it to Alicky.

 

[darthfanta]

No one's letting Mikhail become emperor of anything. He's regent, although, personally, the empress dowager had a near two decade apprenticeship in politics, and seems to have had more brains than Nicky and Alicky put together - so I could see Grandmamushka being the real power. That said, Mikhail might persuade his nephew to consent to his marriage, and that even though it's morganatic (I think letting him acknowledge it as anything more is a stretch - although with Russia's new constitution etc, it might be regarded as equal under Russian Law albeit not necessarily Imperial House Law.) it bears the imperial stamp of approval - maybe as a way for Mikhail/Marie to stick it to Alicky.

In otl,when Michael was proclaimed emperor,the response was quite indifferent and Michael was persuaded by the Duma not to be emperor.This alternate tsarevich would have to screw the Duma to be emperor.

 

[VVD0D95]

No one's letting Mikhail become emperor of anything. He's regent, although, personally, the empress dowager had a near two decade apprenticeship in politics, and seems to have had more brains than Nicky and Alicky put together - so I could see Grandmamushka being the real power. That said, Mikhail might persuade his nephew to consent to his marriage, and that even though it's morganatic (I think letting him acknowledge it as anything more is a stretch - although with Russia's new constitution etc, it might be regarded as equal under Russian Law albeit not necessarily Imperial House Law.) it bears the imperial stamp of approval - maybe as a way for Mikhail/Marie to stick it to Alicky.

Interesting.

 

[Bee]

Returning to the original question, Rasputin would be as influential as in OTL, even if Alexei was the second son. Alexandra would have fixated on her unfortunate younger son, and Nicholas would not have resisted her.

 

[VVD0D95]

Returning to the original question, Rasputin would be as influential as in OTL, even if Alexei was the second son. Alexandra would have fixated on her unfortunate younger son, and Nicholas would not have resisted her.

Ah so the roual family would still suffer through that? Would it be interesting to see this older son not get on so well with the man?

 

[Bee]

In OTL the royal children were very sheltered, and followed their mother's lead in their attitude towards Rasputin. Your suggestion would be more plausible if the crown prince had access to another adult who could see Rasputin for what he was.

 

[VVD0D95]

In OTL the royal children were very sheltered, and followed their mother's lead in their attitude towards Rasputin. Your suggestion would be more plausible if the crown prince had access to another adult who could see Rasputin for what he was.

So a member of the extended family?

 

[JonasResende]

Well, Alicky pissed enough members of the Romanov family that enough of them will be willing to take the young Tsarevich under their wing - especially as a way of sticking it to Alicky. The Nikolaïevski children don't seem to have had a common stance on Rasputin - one of the daughters was actually rumored to have been present at Rasputin's execution (even, according to one story, pulling the trigger) - so if the tsarevich is one of them, which shouldn't be too difficult if he feels that Alexei is the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. This is the boy who's going to be tsar, so he's going to be resentful that all the focus is on his sickly little brother. So, if mom and dad neglect him, I can imagine there would be more than enough people willing to step into the vacuum. Wouldn't be surprising if the 18th century distrust between the monarch and the heir to the throne (Pyotr Velikiy, Alexei Petrovich; Anna Ivanovna, Yelizaveta Petrovna; Yelizveta Petrovna, Pyotr III; Ekaterina Velikaya, Pavel Petrovich; Pavel, Alexander I) (re-)emerging

 

[VVD0D95]

Well, Alicky pissed enough members of the Romanov family that enough of them will be willing to take the young Tsarevich under their wing - especially as a way of sticking it to Alicky. The Nikolaïevski children don't seem to have had a common stance on Rasputin - one of the daughters was actually rumored to have been present at Rasputin's execution (even, according to one story, pulling the trigger) - so if the tsarevich is one of them, which shouldn't be too difficult if he feels that Alexei is the squeaky wheel that gets the most grease. This is the boy who's going to be tsar, so he's going to be resentful that all the focus is on his sickly little brother. So, if mom and dad neglect him, I can imagine there would be more than enough people willing to step into the vacuum. Wouldn't be surprising if the 18th century distrust between the monarch and the heir to the throne (Pyotr Velikiy, Alexei Petrovich; Anna Ivanovna, Yelizaveta Petrovna; Yelizveta Petrovna, Pyotr III; Ekaterina Velikaya, Pavel Petrovich; Pavel, Alexander I) (re-)emerging

Alright very interesting, and something I could definitely see. I could also see parts of the liberal movement as it were trying to gain access to the tsarveich,

Does Alexander for his grandfather make sense for a name?

 

[JonasResende]

Alright very interesting, and something I could definitely see. I could also see parts of the liberal movement as it were trying to gain access to the tsarveich,

Does Alexander for his grandfather make sense for a name?

I'm not sure. The Romanovs tended to avoid certain names that were seen as unlucky - for instance why Pyotr, Pavel, Yelizaveta, Alexandra and Feodor were abandoned. IDK if Alexander would fall into that category (what with Alexander Petrovich having died young, Alexander I Pavlovich having died in odd circumstances, Alexander II having been assassinated and Alexander III having died "before his time".) Might get Yuri (George) for Nikolai's brother, or even Alexei (OTL Olga and Tatiana, for instance were named after the characters in the Pushkin novel Eugene Onegin, so we might see the emergence of a non-dynastic name, or a little-used one).

 

[VVD0D95]

I'm not sure. The Romanovs tended to avoid certain names that were seen as unlucky - for instance why Pyotr, Pavel, Yelizaveta, Alexandra and Feodor were abandoned. IDK if Alexander would fall into that category (what with Alexander Petrovich having died young, Alexander I Pavlovich having died in odd circumstances, Alexander II having been assassinated and Alexander III having died "before his time".) Might get Yuri (George) for Nikolai's brother, or even Alexei (OTL Olga and Tatiana, for instance were named after the characters in the Pushkin novel Eugene Onegin, so we might see the emergence of a non-dynastic name, or a little-used one).

Alright very true. Yuri does sound good, and could be a link to George V as well?

 

[JonasResende]

Alright very true. Yuri does sound good, and could be a link to George V as well?

Plus, to the Empress Dowager's brother, King Georgios I of the Hellenes (who might stand as godfather to the boy), but I'd suggest checking with someone who knows a little more about Russian Orthodox naming and baptismal traditions