Triune military structures

ar-pharazon

Banned
A lot of countries(Nazi Germany, Saddam's Iraq, the Soviet Union(arguably), various other Arab countries(including Saudi Arabia), the Islamic republic of Iran)...

Have dual militaries-meaning they basically have two militaries that counterbalance each other-Hussein had the regular military and republican guard, hitler had the Wehrmacht and SS, The Islamic Republic of Iran had the conventional Artesh and the IRCG, etc...

One force is often more external defense or attack and the other closer to the regime ideologically or otherwise.

How can we have a triune military structure where three militaries compete and counterbalance one another within a state?
 
I won't say the situation you're looking at is impossible (humans have a remarkable track record of coming up with really strange ways of organizing themselves), but in my opinion, it's very unlikely.

Fielding a top-tier military (not necessarily the most powerful, or the largest, but one with up-to-date equipment in sufficient numbers to be useful, supported by trained operators) is a fairly expensive undertaking. Some countries, with very unusual social-political setups and a sufficiently large supply of cash (you mentioned Saudi Arabia as an example) might be able to support two such organizations...but three? Even if your hypothetical government could afford to build three parallel military forces, they'd be spreading the available personnel remarkably thin.

It's also hard to imagine a scenario where three forces are needed. One force defends The State from external threats, a second defends against internal threats, and the third defends against......?
 

ar-pharazon

Banned
Often two militaries aren't so much used as for external defense or attack but as counterbalances within the regime or elite.

It ensures that if there is a civil war or coup one army will remain loyal to the government.

What I'm asking is what sort of state/society could arise in which you need three armies/security forces counterbalancing each other.
 

Redcoat

Banned
This is completely unrelated but I just realized this is this forum's 75,000th thread!!!


Three militaries would be absolutely insanity...Looking at the example of the bad blood between the SS and the Wehrmacht and you can see why a country with this system won't do well. The guy on top has a solid hold on power...But probably won't get anywhere
 
To a limited extent the US has a triune military. Technically the National Guards are under command of the state governors. This is a residue of the 19th Century system where the state militias were independent of the Federal government. This was seen in the era as a essential guarantee against a centralized tyranny. In the US wars of the 19th Century the Federal government had to "request" to the states service from their militias. That system has been much reduced & the state governments have a lot fewer options to leverage Federal service by the NG that are nominally theirs.

Technically state militias still exist on paper. I suppose its possible for a state government to dissolve its NG battalions by ceasing to pay them & issuing a letter discharging them from state service. That might leave the former guards with a Federal obligation, I'll leave that to the lawyers. It would also leave the Feds with a pile of equipment they own, that must be removed from state property. Most NG armories, and many training camps are state owned. The state could in theory revive its militia in hope of a independent military organization. Be interesting to speculate on how it would fall out were a lunatic or very PO state government to try this.
 
Some US States have State Guards which unlike the National Guard don't have an obligation of service to the fedral government. They get very little funding compared to National Guard units.
 
Ar-pharazon wrote:
A lot of countries(Nazi Germany, Saddam's Iraq, the Soviet Union(arguably), various other Arab countries(including Saudi Arabia), the Islamic republic of Iran)...

Have dual militaries-meaning they basically have two militaries that counterbalance each other-Hussein had the regular military and republican guard, hitler had the Wehrmacht and SS, The Islamic Republic of Iran had the conventional Artesh and the IRCG, etc...

One force is often more external defense or attack and the other closer to the regime ideologically or otherwise.

How can we have a triune military structure where three militaries compete and counterbalance one another within a state?

While there are not a "lot" of counties that have had such set ups, there are a number as the examples given show BUT it should be rather obvious WHY they exist as well. The whole reason you have separate "Militaries" is simply because the government (or portions thereof) do not trust the OTHER military not to stage a coup or otherwise remove them from power so they raise and equip their own. The example of the early United States hold similar as it was initially supposed to be a 'check' on the Federal Government but as warfare became more 'modern' and the need for modern equipment and standardized training and supply became paramount the move to 'nationalize' became unavoidable.

How to have a triune military? As noted see Austria-Hungary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Austria-Hungary) or Confederate States of America, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America) and 'adjust' as needed to reach "three" separate, (but equal! :) ) militaries and hope the 'states' can afford them. The main question is "why" you'd need them and "If" they would work in any effective manner. Currently history shows they tend not to the more 'modern' warfare is and the more separate branches of those militaries need to be supported.

Randy
 

Wallet

Banned
You could say this is what Nazi Germany had OTL. You had the Wehrmacht, SS, and Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe did not coordinate with the rest of the military. It even has its own ground forces and boats! It had a separate atomic bomb program.

The Kriegsmarine was also separate enough that you could say Nazi Germany had 4 seperate militaries all with Hitler as commander.

I'm fully convinced that had Nazi Germany won any sort of victory, the second Hitler dies you'll see a massive civil war. And a multi sided one. I could see Himmler, Speers, Goebbels, Goring, Bormann, Keital, Doniz, and Ribbontrop all leading their own loyal forces.
 

Nick P

Donor
Look at Saudi Arabia who once operated a Royal Guard, a National Guard (reserve force) and the main Saudi Army. Play with this a bit and you get a setup where the central government runs the Army while the National Guard units answer to the local/tribal Prince or Governor and the Royal Guard answer only to the King. Each one has their own internal loyalties while all are publicly declared to protect the country.

The Navy are too small to play a major role (as in most countries) but where the Air Force is large enough it could split depending on the loyalties of the unit commanders.

What happens in the event of a civil war or coup makes for an interesting tale....
 
IIRC it was exactly the case in 1980s Afghanistan, during Soviet intervention. They had Ministry of Defense troops (about 1/3 of armed forces), Ministry of Internal Affairs troops (another 1/3) and Ministry of State Security troops (yet another 1/3). If one of them try to do something against the government, the other two had enough soldiers to crash the rebellion.
 
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