Trent War Books - critique thread

Saphroneth

Banned
My aim in starting this thread is to attempt to draw together criticism - well-sourced, preferably - of the books which cover the Trent War and other similar PoDs. Specifically, war between the US and Britain during the period of the Civil War - whether due to British intervention, a separate foreign war, or in one case reality itself warping to permit the Americans (North and South) to together smash Britain and impose Democracy on the Mother of Parliaments.


Links to any existing review threads would also be accepted - gladly.



Part of my intent here is to look into the level of quality which goes into published AH. I selected this particular time period partly because it's of interest to me, and partly with malice aforethought - with Stars and Stripes in the sample area we'll certainly have some fun talking about it.
To quote Yahtzee Croshaw:


"So please, get your shotguns. Join me around this barrel. And let's take it out on some MOTHER FUCKING FISH."



So, if I may begin with a short, pithy comment on the subject.



"An AH writer cannot take liberties with fact; at least, not up to the point where the story begins—the twist that changes history. Only then can history be bent and mutated. But always dealing with the real past and projecting changes into a possible, and new, future."
"The cards are not reshuffled in AH. There must be truth, solid truth, up to the nexus where change begins. In the case of Stars & Stripes, Prince Albert 's death occurs just a few weeks earlier in time. Then we watch the ripples spread out from this change: how, one after another, events are altered, small changes growing into larger ones until there is a new history that is just as realistic as the one in the history books. This is directly opposed to the killer asteroid you mentioned. That is the easy way out. Showy perhaps, but very easy to write. The slow slog of slightly altered history and the widening of events from that tiny change is the way I much prefer to go."
"Stars & Stripes Forever is a true story... Events, as depicted in this book, would have happened just as they are written here."
-Harry Harrison.


Yes, Mr. Harrison. Which presumably explains why the Duke of Wellington is still alive in 1861.
 
I would submit that a fiction writer is given de facto poetic license, which is why I don't worry too much about Turtledove, Conroy or Harrison putting in things that would beggar credibility in a more serious work.

as to the Trent War ... it is very well covered ground. Here are some threads

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=132123&highlight=Britannias+fist

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=153958&highlight=Britannias+fist

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=105474&highlight=Britannias+fist

this is a specific Trent War thread
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=85869&highlight=Britannias+fist

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=368511&highlight=Britannias+fist

a general can the Union win if the British and French jump in thread
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=358395&highlight=Britannias+fist

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=346026&highlight=Britannias+fist

why did the British stay out thread
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=342250&highlight=Britannias+fist

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=307684&highlight=Britannias+fist

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=307684&highlight=Britannias+fist

and one on Dixie Victorious discussing the Trent War
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=100071&highlight=Britannias+fist
 
I don't think I've got the patience to take on Harry Harrison tonight, but there's a naval review here and a few things I've written before:

Let's take the statement "The Duke of Cambridge, Commander-in-Chief of the British army, cousin to the queen, was not used to physical discomfort, in the field or off it." (p137 of my copy).

"The oldest soldiers never witnessed nor heard of a campaign in which general officers were obliged to live out in tents in the open field, for the want of a roof to cover them, and generals who passed their youth in the Peninsular war, and who had witnessed a good deal of fighting since that time in various parts of the world, were unanimous in declaring that they never knew or read of a war in which the officers were exposed to such hardships." (Russell of the Times, C Chapman)
"The Duke of Cambridge, sick and depressed, was passing an anxious time of it in the Retribution, off Balaklava, in all the horrors of that dreadful scene at sea- in fact all the generals and colonels and officers in the field were just as badly off as the meanest private."
"Sir George Brown slept under a cart tilted over. The Duke of Cambridge (First Division), wrapped in a waterproof coat, spent most of the night riding about among his men. Sir de Lacy Evans (Second Division) was the only general whose staff had been careful enough to provide him with a tent." (Despatches from the Crimea, WH Russell)
"By a merciful interposition of providence we have been saved from a watery grave, and nothing but a miracle saved us... It was a fearful gale & we had a more dreadful 24 hours of it than we ever spent. It carried away two anchors and our rudder; [we] had to throw over all our upper deck guns & then we had to hold on by one anchor 200 yards from the rocks which by a merciful providence held us on." (Duke of Cambridge, quoted in the National Army Museum Book of the Crimean War). 21 ships were wrecked in this storm.
"When the surgeon of the Scots Fusilier Guards complained to his servant that his shirt was full of lice, the servant replied, "The Duke of Cambridge is covered with them, sir." (Redcoat, Richard Holmes).

Let's take another one. "The largest British fleet that had been to sea since 1817", from p134. Why 1817, when nothing really happened in that year? He might have meant 1816 and the bombardment of Algiers, when the fleet consisted of 5 ships of the line and 4 frigates. Alternatively, he might have meant 1827 when the fleet consisted of 3 battleships and 4 frigates. The trouble is that during the Crimea, several expeditions consisted of up to 20 ships of the line with between 90 and 100 guns- compared to the 35 ships of the Gulf blockading squadron in 1862, none of which is bigger than 50 guns.

And there's still more. The "large battleship at the centre of the line" (p169) which is apparently powered by steam ("all of the ships of the American fleet were all steam-powered", p172) despite the fact that the US doesn't even have any serviceable sail battleships in 1862. The USS Narragansett, with 50 men, grapples and boards the HMS Warrior, with 705 (p172).

Just to put it into context: the Redoutable, an unarmoured French 74-gun ship-of-the-line, fought the Victory (104 guns) for about an hour and the Victory and Temeraire (98 guns) combined for half an hour. She emerged from that maelstrom with enough men unwounded to crew the Naraganasset twice over, starting with about 60 fewer men than Warrior.

1862 is a bit of an easier job. The British field force in Canada consists of two divisions: a British division of 11,000 men, and the Scottish division of 13,000 men (p.211). This despite Scotland being part of Britain (c.10.5% of the population, to be exact). Lieutenant-General Lord Cardigan is appointed commander of the force, with two generals who out-rank him serving under him: General Hugh, Viscount Gough, and General Colin, Lord Clyde, who for some reason has returned to being plain Sir Colin Campbell. Colonel Garnet Wolseley, whose name is mis-spelt as Wolsey throughout, apparently knows Gough from India (p.241), despite Gough having left India before Wolseley got his commission in 1852. Just before the war broke out, Gough was also planning to retire for a second time (p.241), having initially done so in 1850.

There are further issues with personnel at sea, as Sir William Parker has apparently been dragged out of retirement to supersede Milne. Why Milne couldn't have been kept on is unclear: I can understand the narrative justification for Conroy getting rid of the historic generals in Canada and bringing in famous names, but I had to check to make sure Parker wasn't fictional. I also doubt that there were no admirals other than Parker willing to accept command, as the list of presidents and vice-presidents of the Southern Independence Association (a pro-Confederate pressure group) included three admirals, five captains, a commander and a lieutenant. Certainly neither Milne nor any of his subordinates seem to have had any qualms about the potential war with the US.

The wider military aspects show similar limitations. From the statements "there were few reserves to draw on" (p.36) and the rather outlandish plan to bring Indian troops to garrison the UK (p.187), we can conclude that nobody told Conroy about the existence of the militia- the force which had garrisoned the UK during the Crimea and the Indian Rebellion. In addition, his statement that the Crimea showed "the inadequacies of the British military medical system" (p.37) is perhaps a little uncharitable. Thanks to the extensive medical reforms which took place, during the last five months at the war the death rate for troops in the Crimea was two-thirds of the rate for those at home [source].

He also makes up ships, and does the "Dahlgren = superweapon" thing:
Conroy has the "sloop of war" Asp (no such ship) "immediately burn and sink" when hit with two 11in Dahlgren shots.
However, I've probably picked on him enough for the time being. I'll have a detailed look at some of the flaws in Stars and Stripes forever in a subsequent post.
 
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there are more, but the threads above seem to have the most in them in terms of specifics

I didn't include Englishcanucks or TFSmith121s as they are active threads and easy to find nor did i include the "What tactics would be used" thread as it is closed and was according to the man who started the thread, for an ASB storyline
 

Saphroneth

Banned
there are more, but the threads above seem to have the most in them in terms of specifics

I didn't include Englishcanucks or TFSmith121s as they are active threads and easy to find nor did i include the "What tactics would be used" thread as it is closed and was according to the man who started the thread, for an ASB storyline
Oh, I'm looking for stuff about the books. What would actually happen in a Trent war is a bit contentious on these boards, but I'm pretty sure no-one can really complain about a bit of nitpicking on the books.

I mean, compared to having an undead duke in charge of the British military, any quibbles over the precise amount of gunpowder the Union has on hand pale into insignificance...

Thanks for the list of links, though, I'm glad to have them.

(Also, minor nitpick, the tactics thread was 1880s not Trent - but that's irrelevant.)
 
Oh, I'm looking for stuff about the books. What would actually happen in a Trent war is a bit contentious on these boards, but I'm pretty sure no-one can really complain about a bit of nitpicking on the books.

I mean, compared to having an undead duke in charge of the British military, any quibbles over the precise amount of gunpowder the Union has on hand pale into insignificance...

Thanks for the list of links, though, I'm glad to have them.

(Also, minor nitpick, the tactics thread was 1880s not Trent - but that's irrelevant.)

really in the Harrison books the first major thing is the British attacking the wrong place. After that clearly we have wandered into another universe where strange and wondrous things are commonplace

I posted the links because most of those discuss the Tsouras books. I feel confident that a search would find Harrison and Conroy easily enough as well

The Dixie Victorious book does have a scenario regarding the Trent War worth a quick read
 
It actually looks like Stars and Stripes Forever is going to take a few goes, even if I focus on the errors that haven't been picked up before. For a start, even before Harrison's selected point of departure (the death of Prince Albert) there are changes to the timeline. Harrison has Palmerston write the despatch (p.18), but it was Russell who actually did it. It's waved through at a single Cabinet meeting (p.22), whereas there was spirited discussion about Russell's draft on 30th November and again on 4 December.

In fact, the whole characterisation of Palmerston and Russell's relationship seems off, given that one historian concluded that:
A balanced view of British foreign policy from 1859 to 1862 leads to the conclusion that neither Palmerston nor Russell predominated. For the most part Palmerston was content to allow Lord John to take the lead... Where they disagreed, Palmerston was neither always correct nor always successful in getting his own way. Lord John frequently took major initiatives on his own, occasionally without consulting with Palmerston or even informing him. When he thought the issue important enough, he was perfectly willing to oppose Palmerston, and in such cases he was more often than not on the correct side of the issue. (Paul H. Scherer, 'Partner or Puppet? Lord John Russell at the Foreign Office, 1859-1862,' Albion vol. 19 no. 3 [Autumn 1987] p.371)

The picture we're given is throughout of a meek and subservient Russell giving in to a rage-filled Palmerston, which is more like Palmerston's relationship with Clarendon than Russell. One would hardly imagine that Russell had been Prime Minister before Palmerston and would be Prime Minister again after his death, or that the two had stood side-by-side at Willis' rooms to form the modern Liberal party only a few years before.

The picture of Palmerston seems inaccurate as well. Photos of him doesn't agree with the description of 'large nostrils flared with rage, big as cannon muzzles', unless Harry Harrison has a particularly thin nose. We're told that 'his lordship's temper was not very good at the best of times' (p.17): while he had been nicknamed 'Lord Pumicestone' as a young Foreign Secretary, by all accounts he mellowed in his later years. This was thanks, in large part, to the influence of his wife and former long-term mistress, the widow of Earl Cowper. And his shouting 'Damn the precedents' (p.18) is in stark contrast to the care the government took to obtain legal advice on neutral rights in advance of the Trent, when it looked like the USS James Adger might try to capture Mason and Slidell as they were ending their journey. He also calls his doctors 'simpering nonces' (p.47), though the first recorded use of the word 'nonce' is in 1971.

Though Palmerston is described as 'nodding with grim agreement at the bombast and rage' in the newspapers (p.22), in fact the contemporary papers were surprisingly mild. Duncan Campbell believes 'the tone in England was far more moderate than the irrational explosion of anti-northern sentiment that historians have often portrayed... the press, as a whole preached calm and praised it too, noting the general moderation of public temper it perceived... Despite the claims of some historians, no jingo press clamouring for war can be observed.' (English Public Opinion and the American Civil War [London, 2003] pp. 66-8). This fits very well with my own research into contemporary newspaper opinion. The sense is very much that a deliberately-offered insult cannot be allowed to stand, but there should only be war if it's clear the US wants it.

Then we get to Milne, who confusingly is in the UK rather than on the North America and West Indies station in his flagship HMS Nile. He claims to 'have been too long on the shore' (p.18), despite having been in charge of the station since January 1860. Palmerston says 'You have fought honourably for your country, have been wounded in her service in China. You are an Admiral of the Fleet' (p.19), despite Milne never having served in China, never having been wounded, and not being an Admiral of the Fleet (he was actually a rear admiral of the white, eight steps lower).

That leads us fairly neatly into some of the military aspects, which I'll pick up next.
 
I may as well lead off by defending the Armstrong gun: I assure you, it gets more plausible hereafter. Lincoln claims that the Armstrong guns have been withdrawn from service (p.34): in fact, manufacture only ended in 1863 and Warrior (to cite one example) rearmed with RML guns in 1864. Though Harrison claims that Parrott was in possession of the plans for the Armstrong gun (p.319), he never explains which point of departure leads to Parrott magically inventing the interrupted screw (p.34)

Harrison asserts through Parrott that “After very few shots the gun becomes inoperable,” (p.33) but evidence doesn’t tend to support this conclusion. Between 5 July 1861 and 20 Feb 1863, the gunnery training ship HMS Cambridge fired 316 shot and 81 shell with the 110pdr. Over these 397 shots, they encountered 8 jams, or an average of 49.6 shots per jam, none of which rendered the gun inoperable. You may protest that a training establishment would naturally be more adept with the gun than the average sailor, but surely this should be equally true of Parrott and his men. As such, if they’re damaging the gun badly enough to render it inoperable after a few rounds, the fault would seem to lie more with them than with the gun.

It should also be noted that the results of the bombardment at Kagoshima bear out this approximate 50 round per failure figure. The Euryalus fired 67 rounds and encountered one vent piece broken off; the Racehorse fired 50 rounds and encountered 3 jams, one which delayed firing for 25 minutes and another for 10 minutes; the Coquette fired 37 rounds and the Argus 22. None of the guns were rendered completely inoperable, only temporarily so.

Harrison also struggles to understand the Warrior. He believes that: “To lessen drag when she is under sail the screw is lifted clear of the water. So the stern is unarmoured. As is the bow.” (p.170) However, Warrior’s bow and stern were unarmoured because it was believed that weights near the end increased pitching, not because of the lifting gear (and why would the bow be unarmoured if it was the lifting gear that cause the problem?) Her sister ship Black Prince had the same unarmoured ends but a fixed screw, and when the original tender for Warrior was drawn up, bids by wooden shipbuilders were required to have full-length armour because a wooden ship could not be given waterproof subdivisions as an iron one could. Harrison subsequently claims that “Her hull is made of 1-inch thick iron…This citadel is made of 4 inch-wrought iron plates backed by 12 inches of teak.” (p.170) In fact, Warrior actually had 4.5in of armour with 18in of teak and a hull 9/16th of an inch in thickness.

Jeffers expresses his desire “to see what a ball from an 11in Dahlgren will do against this citadel” (p.170). In fact, we know what would have happened: “The 11-inch gun, fired with a solid steel shot of 189 lbs, and charge of 20 lbs, would not penetrate the ‘Warrior’ at any range, not even if the muzzle of the gun were touching the armour plates.” [source] This was confirmed by US trials, in which three 169lb cast iron and three 186lb wrought iron balls were fired with 30lbs of powder at 30 yards at a Warrior-style target with 4.5in of iron armour, 20in of oak backing and a 1in iron skin. None of the shot penetrated the target. [source] Monitor's guns were limited to 15lb of powder until late July 1862, when Dahlgren's experiments led him to conclude that "The XI in gun may be fired with 20 pounds of powder for shot or shell... When iron sides are to be battered, even 25 pounds of powder may be used, not exceeding 50 fires per gun, provided the gun has not been much used previously". [source]

Jeffers also claims that “Our shot bounced off the Merrimack because she had slanted sides. I want to see what a ball from an 11in Dahlgren will do against this citadel- with its vertical sides”. (p.170) However, the book describes the Monitor “punching the cannon balls through the armour plate to wreak havoc and destruction in the gun deck.” (pp.170-1). The lower sill of the Warrior’s gun-ports was nine and a half feet above the waterline; the Monitor’s guns were around four feet above the waterline. In order to hit the gun deck from such close range, Monitor must have been firing with her guns almost at full elevation, leaving Warrior’s armour just as slanted as that of the Virginia.

In a later battle, the British fleet is described as follows: “Royal Oak led the way, a 60 gun ship of the line. In line astern where [sic] two other great ships. Prince Consort also with 60 guns, and following her was Repulse with 59.” (p.217) It has been noted that none of these ships existed, but it has not been noted that the 60 gun ship-of-the-line was a creature of the 18th century: the last class of 60 gun fourth rates, the Edgar class, were ordered in 1756. The other possibility, given that these battleships are specifically noted as having steam power (p. 219), is that these are intended to represent the ex-74s which were turned into blockships. Ajax, Blenheim, Edinburgh, Hogue, Cornwallis, Hastings and Pembroke all served in the Crimean war: however, this was because Baldwin Walker, the surveyor of the navy, insisted that the inferior Russian fleet could be met with second-class ships. His aim was to save properly seasoned timber for the construction of first-class steam battleships for a potential future conflict with France. The actual battleships that would take part in a Trent War would have 80 guns and over, with the 60-gun ships relegated to harbour service.

It should also be noted that Palmerston believes that Milne has three battleships on 21 December 1861, (p.49), whereas in reality on 20 December Milne had Agamemnon, Conqueror, Donegal, Nile, Sans Pareil and St George, with Aboukir and Hero on their way to join him- Milne, in fact, had more battleships than he knew what to do with. This, however, is less of an embarrassing misapprehension than Gustavus Fox, Assistant secretary of the Navy, asking “is not iron heavier than water? Will it not sink when launched?” (p.56) Given that the first iron-hulled warship was built in 1819 and SS Great Britain crossed the Atlantic in 1845, this is rather like someone in 1929 looking at a motor car and asking which end you feed with hay.
 
I have to say it would be nice if a Trent War book or something similar (the time frame Tsouras used) was written by a naval historian. Tsouras was Regular Army, while Conroy was not in the service nor a historian and while Harrison served in World War II (Army Air Force) he was enlisted and also was not a historian.

Also I didn't realize Conroy was dead (cancer, 2014)

(Harrison died in 2012
 

Saphroneth

Banned
This, however, is less of an embarrassing misapprehension than Gustavus Fox, Assistant secretary of the Navy, asking “is not iron heavier than water? Will it not sink when launched?” (p.56) Given that the first iron-hulled warship was built in 1819 and SS Great Britain crossed the Atlantic in 1845, this is rather like someone in 1929 looking at a motor car and asking which end you feed with hay.

Somehow that one does stand out to me more than the others - indeed, I see that one HMS Nemesis (iron hulled, ocean going) fought in the First Opium War in 1840...

...makes me imagine a head of the USAAF or RAF in WW2 wondering how, exactly, metal aircraft can fly.



He really did no research whatsoever, didn't he? I mean, the political events betray an almost aggressive lack of research, but the ship thing is like having a WW2 battlefleet sporting pre-dreadnoughts. Or possibly sails.
 
He really did no research whatsoever, didn't he?
I genuinely struggle to tell how much, if any, he did. The Fox line seems to be an extremely clunky piece of expository dialogue, but some subsequent lines seem to hint that he really doesn't understand the state of naval affairs in 1861. At the moment, I suspect his research went something like the following:
1) No research on the basic facts, on the assumption that he knew these when he didn't (hence why the Duke of Wellington is still alive).
2) Some research on the more complex aspects, most of which is skewed to portray the British in a bad light (e.g. finding out who the Duke of Cambridge was, and then putting him in command, finding out that the British had Enfield rifles and then taking them off them).
3) No research on the most complex or technical aspects (e.g. how high Warrior's gun-deck was, whether Monitor could actually penetrate Warrior's armour).

Anyway, back to the nit-picking. On the land front, British officers are almost universally characterised as having little more than disgust for the men who serve under them. Lieutenant Saxby Athelstane, for instance, “did not like being disturbed” (p.107); he writes his Canadians off as “backwoods peasants and totally useless” (p.107); he also comes out with “I don’t want the history of your sodding life” and “Shut your miserable mouth!” (p.108); “Major General Sir Robert Bullers used the flat of his sword against more than one of the dullards” (p. 140); Major Dashwood “hurled the man to the ground and kicked him in the ribs with his heavy boot; the soldier screamed like a girl” (p.166) This makes it hard to understand why British observers during the Civil War remarked on the lack of care that amateur Union officers took of their men:

The Yankee officers although they drink, associate, sleep and fight with their men, do not take the slightest interest of care for their men, and every-one looks out for himself, no one for the public good or his men’s welfare. The officers just march with the men and on parade give a few words of command, which are sometimes understood, sometimes not, frequently because the word is incorrect. At the end of a day’s march the officers look out for themselves; never see that their men are properly and completely encamped, or fed, much less that the poor horses are fed or looked after; that the men’s arms, accoutrements, or artillery or cavalry harness is cleaned or repaired”: Captain Edward Osborne Hewett, RE, 3 December 1862, from R. A. Preston, 'A Letter from a British Military Observer of the American Civil War,' Military Affairs, vol. 16 (Summer 1952), p.49-60

Captain Cartledge is described as possessing a “uniform… festooned in gold bullion; rows of shining buttons ran the length of his jacket” (p.126) This is actually a description of the Crimean-era uniform, or possibly the 1855 double-breasted tunic: the 1856 single-breasted Highland doublet which Cartledge would actually be wearing has only a single row of gilt buttons. Similarly, when the colonel of the 62nd is killed, “a bullet tore through the shoulder of his jacket, ripping the epaulette away” (p. 259). Actual pictures of the uniform (1, 2, 3) show gold shoulder cords instead of epaulettes; epaulettes are a Crimean phenomenon.

“Commander Tredegar, your marines will secure the landing beaches. As soon as you are ashore General Bullers will begin landing his men.” (p.139)
In fact, as per the 1859 Royal Navy instructions for operating ashore, marines would not be the only troops used:
The Small-arm men are to be formed into Companies of 80 men, with 3 Petty officers, each Company to be commanded by a Lieutenant, with 2 Mates, or Midshipmen… Every Ship of the Line is to have two Companies properly drilled and trained for landing, Frigates one Company, and Sloops half a Company… Seamen and Marines should be told off in Companies pervious to leaving their ships… Should the boats be employed for the disembarkation of troops… the launches, barges and pinnaces will form a front line so as to clear the beach, the light boats will tow troop, paddle-box boats, etc.

The fact that Harrison believes that the army would be left alone to get ashore perhaps explains his description of the landing:
the soldiers of the regular army had no experience of beach landings and their attempts were glacial in the extreme. While the marines were attacking there was chaos among the army troops. The overloaded boats ran into each other, one capsized and the men had to be rescued and dragged from the sea. It was growing dark before the last of them were ashore. (p.140)

Not only would the Royal Navy be organising the boats, with the manual detailing the steps to take to avoid running into one another, but this is in stark contrast to the landing in the Crimea. Russell describes how:
As each man came creeping down the ladder, Jack [Tar] helped him along tenderly from rung to rung till he was safe in the boat, took his firelock and stowed it away, removed his knapsack and packed it snugly under the seat, patted him on the back, and told him ‘not to be afeerd on the water’; treated ‘the sojer,’ in fact, as if he were a large but not very sagacious ‘pet’, who was not to be frightened or lost sight of on any account… the same attention was paid to getting the ‘sojer’ on shore that was evinced in getting him to the boat; the sailors (half or wholly naked in the surf) standing by at the bows and handing each man and his accoutrement down the plank to the shingle, for fear ‘he’d fall off and hurt himself’… especially valuable were they with horses and artillery; and their delight at having a horse to hold and to pat all to themselves was excessive.

One thing I neglected to pick up on earlier: Milne comments “I wish her designers had not been so condescending to the Admiralty old guard. Sail or steam, I say. One or the other and not a mixture of the two.” (p.136) If Milne had said this, he would have been an idiot. Contemporary engines are simply not efficient enough for a ship without sails to take a role more ambitious than coastal defence, while steam gives a ship a dramatic advantage in combat. Milne also complains that “the others believed that the sailors would be spoiled and grow lazy if machines did their work for them.” (p.136). This, of course, begs the question of why the ship possessed a donkey engine to pump the bilges, provide sea-water for the firemain, drive fans to ventilate the decks, and hoist buckets of furnace ash to be dumped overboard; a crab engine to work cables out of the locker; and a laundry with washing machines. Black Prince also had a steam-operated capstan.

Possibly two more of these? It's hard to tell.
 
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One Explanation why Wllington is stioll alive is that his son was named Arthur (Richard) Wellesly (2.) Duke of Wellington. This later Wellington was both politican and (Major) General ... (I must admit I did NOT read Harrisons book)
 
One Explanation why Wllington is stioll alive is that his son was named Arthur (Richard) Wellesly (2.) Duke of Wellington.
It's definitely the original Wellington: "Lord Wellesley, the Duke of Wellington, perhaps the most famous man in England; surely the most famous general alive... Wellington laughed reedily. 'When one is ninety-two it does not matter how one looks... Since my illness in '52 I have the feeling that I am living on borrowed time and I mean to enjoy it... I was at death's door- but that dread portal never opened.'"(pp.66-7)

I'd forgotten that Harrison hand-waved the 'Wellington being alive factor', so amend that to category 2) rather than category 1). However, I don't understand why. Him being alive doesn't serve any purpose in the story (delaying reform of the army, for instance) and is never alluded to again. Could Harrison not be bothered to come up with someone else for Palmerston to go see?

This bit's wrong as well: "'Conky', his troops had called him affectionately. All dead now, all in their graves, the hundreds of thousands of them." (p.67) Firstly, I was always under the impression that they called him 'Old Nosey', an impression increased by the first recorded use of the word 'conk' for 'nose' being in 1819 and 'Conky' as a nickname being in 1838. Secondly, they weren't all dead. Really, finding factual errors in this book is like pulling at a loose thread: it just keeps unravelling.

Oh, and some more general critique on the treatment of Canada:

... it seems to be the case that authors who write on this hypothetical war love to overemphasize the details of the Patriote revolt in 1838 and lauding men like Papineau, while soundly ignoring the real policy makers of the day in Canada such as MacDonald (well both of them), Cartier, Brown, Dorion, and Tache. Of the five listed, only one (Dorion) could possibly be considered a potential rebel whose firm stance against Confederation marks him out amongst these other policy makers. The others, are all staunch loyalists and carried far more weight in Canada than even Dorion did at the time. There is a reason that combined they managed to sideline him in 1864 historically after all.

The problem of course with the seemingly constant portrayal of the people of British North America (or as they have been referred to for over 80 years now, Britain's Canadian subjects) is that they seem to lack agency of their own, or specifically any agency which might set them at odds with any plans the Union has. Take for instance works like Robert Conroy's 1862 or Harry Harrison's Stars and Stripes, or works like Britannia's Fist by Peter Tsouras, scant attention is paid to the Canadian colonial leaders of the time, MacDonald is barely mentioned in passing in the aforementioned works... Harry Harrison lauds quite a bit of attention on Papineau... but nothing on the Canadian leaders of the day. With more attention being devoted to supposed 'Cassandras' who despite zero inclination historically jump aside from their established interests and throw their lot in with people they have precisely zero reason to mix with.

...staunchly ignoring men like Cartier, Brown, and both MacDonalds does no credit to any story which supposedly lauds itself on realism and accuracy.
 
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We’re informed that Private Poole belongs to the "16th Bedford and Hertfordshire" (p.229); however, this regiment never existed. The 16th Regiment’s county subtitle was Bedfordshire; the Hertfordshire regiment was the 49th. Following the Cardwell/Childers reforms, the 16th Regimental District encompassed both Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire: however, it wasn't until 1919 when Hertfordshire was added to the title, and by that time the numbers were long gone. Furthermore, Harrison seems to believe the regiment is nicknamed "The Old Ducks" (p.230) and not "the Old Bucks", a reference to the county title of Buckinghamshire which the regiment had held until 1809. This suggests that Harrison either misread his own notes, or he had someone else do his research for him.

Harrison also describes carefully how "the 62nd Foot had come late to this war, had actually returned from India to be refitted and sent across another ocean to do battle" (p.257). In fact, the 62nd had been at Halifax since 1857. His description of them as "tough, professional soldiers, who had fought in Afghanistan and other embattled countries at the extreme edges of the British empire" (p.257) is accurate, and indeed probably applies to a lot more British regiments than just the 62nd. However, the 62nd’s battle honours include the Crimea alongside Ferozeshah and Sobraon from the First Sikh War, but not Afghanistan.

When the 1st US Sharpshooters go into action, we’re treated to the following description:
"A small party of mounted men, trotted out from the distant line of trees. They were a good five, perhaps even six hundred yards away… It was though a strong wind had swept across the group of horsemen, sweeping them all from their saddles in a single instant… 'Then we shoot the men who stop to shoot at us. All this before their muskets are within range'." (p.201)
This is remarkable, because I’ve laboriously explained many times on these boards how 600 yards is well within sharpshooter range for the British. Even if you disregard the vast amounts of evidence for the British training to fight at 900 yards, there are sufficient first-hand descriptions of individual sharpshooters hitting at 600 yards. So why exactly are the British unable to engage at 600 yards? Because, apparently, they’ve brought the P42 musket back out of storage rather than the several hundred thousand spare Enfields they had historically:

"in the last engagement his musket had exploded… Gave him a musket from a dead man. Useless thing. Brown Bess, the same gun that had licked Napoleon. But that was a long time ago and he missed his Enfield rifled musket." (p.229)
"Do you realise that some of my men actually use Tower muskets?"
"Brown Bess won wars," the Duke said.
"Won, sir, in the past, sir."
(p.232)
Given the number of Union soldiers who were carrying smoothbores well into 1863, this is a perfect example of the phenomenon I've described earlier. It becomes impossible to work out whether Harrison didn't do the research, or did do the research but twisted the facts to make the British look worse.

Harrison describes "The Duke of Cambridge, newly returned from America and resplendent in the full dress uniform of the Horseguards." (p.231) In fact, Horse Guards (two words) isn’t a regiment but the building in which the Duke of Cambridge works. If the Duke was going to wear any full dress uniform, it would most likely be his uniform as colonel of the Scots Fusilier Guards. Though there is a regiment called the Royal Horse Guards (Blues), their colonel is Viscount Gough- the same man, incidentally, who Conroy dragged out of second retirement.

It’s a shame the Duke was so flatly characterised, because once you find out a bit about him he’s actually a fascinating individual with some nuanced and interesting views on army reform. What I would have most liked to see depicted was his swearing: “the Duke had inherited from his uncles, of the Regency generation, a command of varied and picturesque imagery far beyond the resources of Billingsgate.” He once ended a cadet mutiny at Sandhurst with little more than bad language, and when Kaiser Wilhelm I made various suggestions of eligible German princesses (ignoring the Duke’s existing morganatic marriage) he was greeted with a "wealth of invective [that] nearly paralysed the Emperor. In bluntest terms he [the Duke] described Germans in general, Prussians in particular, and Teutonic princesses in detail. No gentleman, he stormed, would ever advise another to desert a lady to whom he had pledged his word in the sight of God and man."

He once concluded a review with the words “In all my experience of reviews in England, Ireland or on the Continent of Europe, I have never witnessed such a damnable exhibition of incompetence as has been shown by the Grenadier Guards today. When the Cease Fire sounded, the First Battalion was firing at the Serpentine; the Second Battalion was firing at the Marble Arch; and God Almighty knows where the Third Battalion was firing. I don’t.” At another inspection, he had the following discussion with the colonel of a battalion:
“Where are the pioneers? I don’t see them.”
“In front of the leading company, your Royal Highness.”
“Have they got their picks and shovels with them?”
“Certainly, your Royal Highness. Do you want them to do anything?”
“Yes. I want them to dig a very deep and very wide hole, and then bury this battalion in it.”


I find this guy a much more lively and intriguing character than the stale caricature of an incompetent aristocratic that we're given.
 
hmm... A big chunk of this thread seems to be devoted to explaining why the Stars and Stripes trilogy is inaccurate, misleading, and just generally wrong...

I think you're preaching to the choir here, guys... no one ever really doubted that... :)
 
hmm... A big chunk of this thread seems to be devoted to explaining why the Stars and Stripes trilogy is inaccurate, misleading, and just generally wrong...

I think you're preaching to the choir here, guys... no one ever really doubted that... :)

that occurred to me as well

although the Horseguards quote might have been an editing error. I have seen weirder things from people who know better or who should. As the Duke was Colonel in Chief of the Foot Guards (already known as the Coldstream Guards as of 1855) if he had written Foot Guards it could of been incorrectly edited as Horse Guards.

Probably not, but Harrison is dead so we can hardly ask
 
I think you're preaching to the choir here, guys... no one ever really doubted that... :)
I'm not so sure: I've rarely seen people bring Wellington back from the dead, but some of the other tropes Harrison uses (Spencers for everybody, coastal ironclads annihilating blockading forces, an incompetent and antiquated British army, the French Canadians jumping merrily into the arms of a power they mistrusted more than the British) crop up with depressing regularity despite being just as inaccurate. This may be related to the fact that we see much more eye-rolling about the quality of the books than we do detailed examination of what they get wrong. Furthermore, the fact that the world has pretty much reached a consensus on the literary merits of Twilight and Left Behind doesn't stop solid debunkings of them being enjoyable.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Don't forget the sheer silliness of giving the power which was OTL willing to accept percussion smoothbores and rifles made from condemned parts (the US) a massive number of multishot carbines, while the power which OTL had enough rifle-muskets to not only arm themselves but which would ship hundreds of thousands to the Americas by 1863 (the British) weapons which actually do not exist any more except as curios in foreign armouries.
(The Brown-Bess muskets were destroyed by fire while waiting to be converted to percussion, as I recall... so the Americans, who captured some in 1812-15, may actually have more of them than the British. And, arguably, more need.)
 

frlmerrin

Banned
Sorry chaps but I really like the Harrison trilogy or the first book at least. I think it is a wonderful wind-up written by a man with known Fenian tendencies. I suspect he would have been delighted at the thought of young craufurd or someone very British like him demolishing his work in prolix reasoned passages long after his death. I think Rob you are wasting your talents here.

I would much prefer it if you turned your fire on the excrable work of Tsouras. Having said that I do seem to recall Tielhard/Dure/Telemond working himself in to a state of such epoplexy over Bungle's Rainbow and the Bucket of Blood that he could no longer continue the thread.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Sorry chaps but I really like the Harrison trilogy or the first book at least. I think it is a wonderful wind-up written by a man with known Fenian tendencies. I suspect he would have been delighted at the thought of young craufurd or someone very British like him demolishing his work in prolix reasoned passages long after his death. I think Rob you are wasting your talents here.

I would much prefer it if you turned your fire on the excrable work of Tsouras. Having said that I do seem to recall Tielhard/Dure/Telemond working himself in to a state of such epoplexy over Bungle's Rainbow and the Bucket of Blood that he could no longer continue the thread.
See first post - this is a case of "see barrel, notice fish, get shotgun".



I'm looking at that battle (where the Monitor shreds the Warrior) - and there's something rather interesting about it.
The 68-lbers are not doing any damage at the point blank range the 11" Dalghrens are punching clean through the armour. And so are the "100-lbers" (which are presumably 110-lbers).

Harrison also notes that "Round shot could not penetrate as Merrimack had discovered. But Merrimack had been immune to the return fire as well".

...except that Monitor's opponent at Hampton Roads had been mostly armed with grape and shell.


It's also probably worth noting that the USS Narragansett appears to have teleported from the Pacific in order to mount her boarding action.




Looking ahead a bit, I selected a random page and came across a bit where the US troops are sniping down British 9-lber crews bringing their guns into action at 230 yards, and then shoot down British horsemen at 600 yards before sniping away at a British attack to thin it out before the British get in range.

This is a bit rich - not because it's impossible, but because it is quite possible and it's the British who did it historically - and before the PoD, as well...
Heck, the whole reason the RBL 12 lb was adopted was because it was felt no longer possible to operate artillery in close support of infantry...
(I know Rob covered this one, but he didn't mention the artillery bit and I thought I'd make sure it was clear.)


...oh, dear me. A 20 shot Spencer.
That would require an 80 cm long butt, which is nearly as long as the real rifle is in toto... (Note also that later a 10-shot Spencer shows up as "the very newest".)


edit - now that's just ridiculous. The USS Avenger blows one of the Halifax batteries to smithereens with two shots, while bouncing the fire from the batteries off her "eight inch thick armour".

Now, those shells are largely being fired from a citadel at least a hundred feet above the sea. That means the fire is plunging... and for that, Avenger clearly has to have an eight inch deck.


Monitor's deck is one inch thick, and her belt is about four inches. The Kalamazoo class, cancelled at the end of the ACW, had a three inch deck and a six inch belt.

The Iowa had a 7.5 inch deck.


A little later in that section it repeats - once again - the idea that the War of 1812 was Britain trying to crush the US.



Further on Avenger - she has a newly invented "Surface condenser" to let her do fifteen knots. This is possible at this time, but not very practical - it would clog with grease - but was nevertheless being tried as an engineering exercise.

By the British. In the Mooltan.
 
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