Treaty of Versailles not as harsh re: Germany, WWII butterflied away

[Kabraloth]

The articles on Wiki I read mention that a significent number of them weren't real inhabitants of those areas but former soldiers, officials and settlers moved there formerely by Germany and Prussia to Germanize the areas.

Yeah, those passages fell victim to the Wikipedia Poles. You don't want to be like them, do you?

 

[Markus]

The articles on Wiki I read mention that a significent number of them weren't real inhabitants of those areas but former soldiers, officials and settlers moved there formerely by Germany and Prussia to Germanize the areas.

Moved when? 5, 10, 50 years ago? Demographics change and unless we are talking about ethnic cleansing recent arrivals should have the same rights as long term residents. Anyway this "germanisation" didn´t start until the 1870s/80s. By the way, it seems to have been neither big nor successful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Posen#Religious_and_ethnic_conflicts

 

[Terlot]

Yeah, those passages fell victim to the Wikipedia Poles.

They are no Wikipedia Germans ? What's wrong with being a Pole who edits Wikipedia ?

The passages I read quote non-Polish authors, including a American-German one claimed as pro-German by a German author.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_corridor

Frederick the Great settled around 300,000 colonists in the eastern provinces of Prussia and aimed at a removal of the Polish nobilty, which he treated with contempt and likened the 'slovenly Polish trash' in newly reconquered West Prussia to Iroquois.[43] [44]. A second colonization aimed at Germanisation was pursued by Prussia after 1832[45]. Laws were passed in Prussia aimed at Germanisation of the provinces of Posen and West Prussia in the late 19th century, also 154,000 colonists, including locals, were settled by the Prussian Settlement Commission in the provinces of Posen and West Prussia before World War I.

The American historian of German descent[50] Richard Blanke in his book Orphans of Versailles names several reasons for the exodus of the German population describes the process itself. The author has been criticised by Christian Raitz von Frentz and his book classified by him as part of a series on the subject that have an anti-Polish bias. Polish professor A. Cienciala notes that Blanke's views in the book are sympathetic to Germany[51]

• A number of former settlers from the Prussian Settlement Commission who settled in the area after 1886 in order to Germanise it were in some cases given a month to leave, in other cases they were told to leave at once[48].
• Poland found itself under threat during the Polish-Bolshevik war[48], and the German population feared that Bolshevik forces would control Poland. Migration to Germany was a way to avoid conscription and participation in the war.
• State-employed Germans such as judges, prosecutors, teachers and officials left as Poland did not renew their employment contracts. German industrial workers also left due to fear of lower-wage competition. Many Germans became economically dependent on Prussian state aid as it fought the "Polish problem" in its provinces[48].
• Germans refused to accept living in a Polish state[48]. As Lewis Bernstein Namier claimed: "Some Germans undoubtedly left because they would not live under the dominion of a race which they had previously oppressed and despised."[52]
• Germans feared that the Poles would seek reprisals after over a century of harassment and discrimination by the Prussian and German state against the Polish population[48].
• Social and linguistic isolation: While the population was mixed, only Poles were required to be bilingual. The Germans usually didn't learn Polish. When Polish became the only official language in Polish-majority provinces, their situation became difficult. The Poles shunned Germans which contributed to their isolation[48].
• Lower standards of living. Poland was a much poorer country than Germany[48].
• Former Nazi politician and later opponent Hermann Rauschning wrote that 10% of Germans were unwilling to remain in Poland regardless of their treatment, and another 10% were workers from other parts of the German Empire with no roots in the region[48].

Blanke states that official encouragement by the Polish state played a secondary role in the exodus[48]. Christian Raitz von Frentz notes "that many of the repressive measures were taken by local and regional Polish authorities in defiance of Acts of Parliament and government decrees, which more often than not conformed with the minorities treaty, the Geneva Convention and their interpretation by the League council - though it is also true that some of the central authorities tacitly tolerated local initiatives against the German population."[42] While there were demonstrations and protests and occasional violence against Germans, they were at a local level, and officials were quick to point out that they were a backlash against former discrimination against Poles[48]. There were other demonstrations when Germans showed disloyalty during the Polish-Bolshevik war[48] as the Red Army announced the return to the prewar borders of 1914[53]. Thus despite popular pressure and occasional local actions, perhaps as many as 80% of Germans emigrated voluntarily[48].

All that I read confirms that hundreds of thousands of Germans were non-local.

Demographics change and unless we are talking about ethnic cleansing recent arrivals should have the same rights as long term residents.

That would mean that if a country A invaded country B and settled there hundreds of thousands of people to dominate it, it would be ok. This is obviously wrong. If a demographic changed due to discrimination, persecution, government actions or result of invasion, it should be reverted in humane way.

Anyway this "germanisation" didn´t start until the 1870s/80s. By the way, it seems to have been neither big nor successful.

The articles start with Frederick in XVIII century. And while in Poznań Poles were 73 % in 1815 after Germanization they shrunk to 61 % in 1910. Germans rose from 25% to 38%.

 

[Markus]

The articles start with Frederick in XVIII century. And while in Poznań Poles were 73 % in 1815 after Germanization they shrunk to 61 % in 1910. Germans rose from 25% to 38%.

LOL! So, everyone whose ancestors have not lived in the area for at least 150 years are colonists and should have no say in in the political future of their home? I bet the French would not have like the idea as they took away Alsace-Lorraine from the Holy Roman Empire in the late 17th century.

 

[dummnutzer]

They are no Wikipedia Germans ? What's wrong with being a Pole who edits Wikipedia ?

Some groups, e.g. members of Scientology and Polish and Armenian patriots, are very active in editing Wikipedia, which sometimes results in exaggerated claims by these groups.

Non-members of these groups have developed a certain skepticism towards any e.g. pro-Polish claims on Wikipedia.

It also seems to be somewhat of a running gag on this board ...

-------------

You call Germans that settled there under Frederic the Great non-local. But there was a massive illegal influx of ethnic Poles into the parts of Germany that later became Poland during the Second Reich. Under your logic, they are non-local, too.

What about some of my ancestors that settled there 700 years ago ...

If a demographic changed due to discrimination, persecution, government actions or result of invasion, it should be reverted in humane way.

What about the Poles moving West after WWII, settling in areas that had been non-Slavic since 1300 AD - are they also non-local after 60+ years?

No, I am of course not advocating moving the border, but ethnic cleansing or migrations are often more complex than one thinks.

Poles quite often tend to concentrate on the failed German colonization programs, but ignore successful illegal mass immigration of Poles from Russian occupied Poland IMHO.

 

[Terlot]

Some groups, e.g. members of Scientology and Polish and Armenian patriots, are very active in editing Wikipedia, which sometimes results in exaggerated claims by these group.

They are no German patriots active on Wikipedia ?

But there was a massive illegal influx of ethnic Poles into the parts of Germany that later became Poland during the Second Reich. Under your logic, they are non-local, too.

Those parts were taken from Poland in the first place so it doesn't seem as good argument. Also wasn't the abolishment of Duchy of Poznań illegal btw ?

What about some of my ancestors that settled there 700 years ago ...

As you say yourself-they weren't locals.

What about the Poles moving West after WWII, settling in areas that had been non-Slavic since 1300 AD

As you yourself say those areas have previously been Polish and Slavic.

No, I am of course not advocating moving the border, but ethnic cleansing or migrations are often more complex than one thinks.

There is not much complexitiy in the fact that Prussia, German Empire and Nazi Germany did settle hundreds of thousands of Germans to replace the Polish population while discriminating those people. It can't be seen as fair.

Poles quite often tend to concentrate on the failed German colonization programs, but ignore successful illegal mass immigration of Poles from Russian occupied Poland IMHO.

Into German occupied Poland you didn't wrote. But I would like to see the claim supported by evidence. In Silesia and Wielkopolska after all Polish population lowered till WW1 and German one increased.

 

[Talkie Toaster]

As you say yourself-they weren't locals.

Whereas, of course, the Poles had been there since the beginning of time.

 

[Terlot]

Whereas, of course, the Poles had been there since the beginning of time.

No, but they first state there was Czech and Polish, Germany came much later. There were of course many tribes wandering through the area before states were created. The same applies to Polish conquests of course-Lviv should be part of Ukraine, Vilnius to Lithuania, both cities were/are Polish just as Wrocław, Poznań were "German".

I found the text about Silesia :
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/partiii.asp

In the portion of Upper Silesia included within the boundaries described below, the inhabitants will be called upon to indicate by a vote whether they wish to be attached to Germany or to Poland: starting from the northern point of the salient of the old province of Austrian Silesia situated about 8 kilometres east of Neustadt, the former frontier between Germany and Austria to its junction with the boundary between the Kreise of Leobschutz and Ratibor; thence in a northerly direction to a point about 2 kilometres south-east of Katscher: the boundary between the Kreise of Leobschutz and Ratibor; thence in a south-easterly direction to a point on the course of the Oder immediately south of the Ratibor-Oderberg railway: a line to be fixed on the ground passing south of Kranowitz; thence the old boundary between Germany and Austria, then the old boundary between Germany and Russia to its junction with the administrative boundary between Posnania and Upper Silesia; thence this administrative boundary to its junction with the administrative boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia, thence westwards to the point where the administrative boundary turns in an acute angle to the south-east about 3 kilometres north-west of Simmenau: the boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia; then in a westerly direction to a point to be fixed on the ground about 2 kilometres east of Lorzendorf: a line to be fixed on the ground passing north of Klein Hennersdorf: thence southwards to the point where the boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia cuts the Stadtel-Karlsruhe road: a line to be fixed on the ground passing west of Hennersdorf, Polkowitz, Noldau, Steinersdorf, and Dammer, and east of Strehlitz, Nassadel, Eckersdorf, Schwirz, and Stadtel; thence the boundary between Upper and Middle Silesia to its junction with the eastern boundary of the Kreis of Falkenberg; then the eastern boundary of the Kreis of Falkenberg to the point of the salient which is 3 kilometres east of Puschine; thence to the northern point of the salient of the old province of Austrian Silesia situated about 8 kilometres east of Neustadt: a line to be fixed on the ground passing east of Zulz.
The regime under which this plebiscite will be taken and given effect to is laid down in the Annex hereto.
The Polish and German Governments hereby respectively bind themselves to conduct no prosecutions on any part of their territory and to take no exceptional proceedings for any political action performed in Upper Silesia during the period of the regime laid down in the Annex hereto and up to the settlement of the final status of the country.
Germany hereby renounces in favour of Poland all rights and title over the portion of Upper Silesia Iying beyond the frontier line fixed by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers as the result of the plebiscite.

On the conclusion of the voting, the number of votes cast in each commune will be communicated by the Commission to the Principal Allied and Associated Powers, with a full report as to the taking of the vote and a recommendation as to the line which ought to be adopted as the frontier of Germany in Upper Silesia. In this recommendation regard will be paid to the wishes of the inhabitants as shown by the vote, and to the geographical and economic conditions of the locality.

So as it was never about whole Upper Silesia and the vote was quidance.

 

[dummnutzer]

They are no German patriots active on Wikipedia ?

There are German patriots? German Wikipedia tends to be more critical of our history than the French and English versions IME.

But I would like to see the claim supported by evidence.

I hope that the diplomatic crisis between Russia and Germany is enough: Russia had been quite happy to see some of its Poles going West, and was not amused as Germany tried to close the border.

No, but they first state there was Czech and Polish, Germany came much later. There were of course many tribes wandering through the area before states were created.

This interesting view of history (everybody living there before we came were just barbarians, everybody who came later is an invader) precludes any further discussion, sorry.

Have a nice day.

PS:

A quick remark about your legal text. Germany agreed under military pressure. You seem to have no problem with it.

The Sejm at Grodno in 1793 ratified the Second partition of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - under military pressure, too. I suppose you - having no problems with treaties agreed at gunpoint - are fine with the Polish Partition, too,

 

[Terlot]

This interesting view of history (everybody living there before we came were just barbarians, everybody who came later is an invader) precludes any further discussion, sorry.

Interesting thing to claim , especially since I noted that the same applies to Vilnius and Lviv and Polish claims to them. But I think you dodged the issue-after all if not Moravia and Poland which was the first state there ?

There are German patriots?

Since German nationalist parties due get some votes in percentages in local elections-I think we can safely say they are.

A quick remark about your legal text. Germany agreed under military pressure. You seem to have no problem with it.

The Sejm at Grodno in 1793 ratified the Second partition of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth - under military pressure, too. I suppose you - having no problems with treaties agreed at gunpoint - are fine with the Polish Partition, too,

Completely different situation-Germany wasn't invaded and forced to sign a treaty-but surrendered after it lost a agressive war against most of Europe.

 

[Markus]

There are German patriots?

Since German nationalist parties due get some votes in percentages in local elections-I think we can safely say they are.

*chuckel, chuckle* You jumped head first to the wrong conclusion, but hey, its funny.

 

[dummnutzer]

But I think you dodged the issue-after all if not Moravia and Poland which was the first state there ?

How to define a state, hmmh ... as a jurist, I tend to look at the legal side. Rome is, where Roman Law rules, to quote some dead Roman.´Polish´ cities (often with large or majority German and/or Scandinavian populations) mostly used the Magdeburger Stadtrecht and even appealed to the court at Magdeburg, accepting the legal superiority of said German court. (Kasimir III later created his own appeals courts and met massive protests due to their dubious legal skills, but even he kept the IVS TEVTONICVM).

You seem to like the force angle, so let us look at the Ordensstaat, the Teutonic Knights. They created a well organized state in an area that had been largely settled by heathen barbarians before (i.e. in an area that was no state under your definition).

Opps. The original states in ´Poland´ seem to have been quite ... German.

Completely different situation-Germany wasn't invaded and forced to sign a treaty-but surrendered after it lost a agressive war against most of Europe.

Your view is rather simplistic and still based on Allied WWI-propaganda. I might add that Poland has been quite expansionistic whenever it could, so playing the victim card is somewhat amusing.

 

[Terlot]

´Polish´ cities (...) mostly used the Magdeburger Stadtrecht

After several centuries of existance without using any of those administrative rules. Today we use business and rights based on USA laws or French laws but doesn't mean Polish cities are part of USA or France. If you don't believe-Gdańsk dates its existance long before adopting those rules.

(often with large or majority German and/or Scandinavian populations)

The presence of German population has been largely overemphasized. The Germanization was becoming dominant only in XVIII and XIX century. Also the conutry was agricultural and rural population was overwhelmingly Polish.


Dummnutzer-you claimed Poles "succesfully immigrated"

Poles quite often tend to concentrate on the failed German colonization programs, but ignore successful illegal mass immigration of Poles from Russian occupied Poland

In what way was it succesfull ? In both Silesia and Wielkopolska after all the Polish population became smaller and German larger till WW1. Could you explain what you meant ?

As to Teutonic Order-they were doing this while ageeing to be subordinated to Polish rule.

I might add that Poland has been quite expansionistic whenever it could, so playing the victim card is somewhat amusing.

Of course Poland was expansionistic-the takeover of Lviv and Vilnius was completely unfair. However Poland didn't treat whole nations as subhumans nor did it try to exterminate them-something that was done on Poland and certainly allows her to feel victim to such practices.

 

[Valdemar II]

Of course Poland was expansionistic-the takeover of Lviv and Vilnius was completely unfair. However Poland didn't treat whole nations as subhumans nor did it try to exterminate them-something that was done on Poland and certainly allows her to feel victim to such practices.

Just one little problem, that happend after the Second Reich and not before.

Interesting enough under Polish rule in Between Versailles and until WWII German population in Posen, Polish Pomerania and Polish Silesia reduced by two thirds, German education was restricted, Lutheran churches stood empty because German educated priests was denied access to Poland and their education in Poland was restricted. So the treatment Poles got under the Second Reich and Weimar Republic was better than the treatment Germans received in the Republic of Poland.

I think the "Orphans of Versailles" is nice source.

http://books.google.dk/books?id=80r...qbHMAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

 

[Terlot]

Interesting enough under Polish rule in Between Versailles and until WWII German population in Posen, Polish Pomerania and Polish Silesia reduced by two thirds

Yes, because clerks, former settlers and officials went home back to Prussia a and Germany-this is confirmed by German authors.

So the treatment Poles got under the Second Reich and Weimar Republic was better than the treatment Germans received in the Republic of Poland.

The Poles didn't send hundreds of thousands of Germans into forced labour like German Empire did in WW1. Nor did Poles plan a famine to reduce German population or engaged in anything similar like Kulturkampf. There was no law forbidding Germans to build homes just because they were Germans, nor was there any signficent(if existing at all) literature claiming Germans are inferior race and culture, Poles didn't plan to take over Germany and rule it by Polish minority and control whole German industry, military, or transportation. So the claim that Germany was better to Poles then Poles to Germans is unfounded. No doubt though there was a backlash against Germans after over a century of discrimination, things like Bismarcks calls to shoot Poles as wolves and so on, such is human nature. Also some of the measures were aimed at reversing the Germanization that happened in the past.

I think the "Orphans of Versailles" is nice source.

The author of this book has been criticised by German historian Christian Raitz von Frentz as having an anti-Polish bias. But even this book admits that majority of Germans who left Poland did so on their own free will or were non-locals.

Just one little problem, that happend after the Second Reich and not before.

While the extermination aspect happened after Second Reich, the belief that Poles are inferior race group was quite present and evident already under German Empire.

 

[Valdemar II]

Yes, because clerks, former settlers and officials went home back to Prussia a and Germany-this is confirmed by German authors.

Officials and clerks made up 10% of the total population of the former population of the provinses, it leave 20% which left which didn't belong to whose two groups. Beside calling them settlers, unless you count people who have lived in a place for over 100 years for settlers, it's wrong

The Poles didn't send hundreds of thousands of Germans into forced labour like German Empire did in WW1. Nor did Poles plan a famine to reduce German population or engaged in anything similar like Kulturkampf. There was no law forbidding Germans to build homes just because they were Germans, nor was there any signficent(if existing at all) literature claiming Germans are inferior race and culture, Poles didn't plan to take over Germany and rule it by Polish minority and control whole German industry, military, or transportation. So the claim that Germany was better to Poles then Poles to Germans is unfounded. No doubt though there was a backlash against Germans after over a century of discrimination, things like Bismarcks calls to shoot Poles as wolves and so on, such is human nature. Also some of the measures were aimed at reversing the Germanization that happened in the past..

Okay Hurgan.

The author of this book has been criticised by German historian Christian Raitz von Frentz as having an anti-Polish bias. But even this book admits that majority of Germans who left Poland did so on their own free will or were non-locals.

The book is anti-Polish in the same way, a book about South Africa is anti-White, and please a German author, that count for nothing, I could find a hundred German authors and historians who have written that evil is inhereted in German culture and is critical of anything that smell of pro-German. Beside you comment about them being non-locals or on their own free will is crap, they left because they were economical forced out, through economical boycot or nationalisation of their property.

...According to Aurich, author of the most thorough German account (according to Harry Gordon[5]), after police forces retreated from Bydgoszcz, agitated Polish civilians charged many Germans with assaulting Polish soldiers and executed them and any Poles who stood up in their defense.[5] Rasmus attributes the situation to confusion and the disorganized state of the Polish forces in the city.[18] Along those lines Christian Raitz von Frentz wrote that "In Bydgoszcz, the event was probably caused by confusion among the rapidly retreating soldiers, a general breakdown in public order and panic among the Polish majority after two German air raids and the discovery of a small reconnaissance group of the German army on the previous day."[3] He quotes the Nazi German reports about the civilian victims and atrocities, later collaborated by a Red Cross commission that Nazis invited to the scene.[3] Frentz however also noted that eyewitness accounts of atrocities committed against the German population are also as unreliable as Polish accounts of the fifth columnists.[3] It is also pointed out that during the war no ethnic Germans are known to have spoken of participation in that event.[18] In the post-war collaboration trials, no ethnic German was charged with relation to the Bloody Sunday.[3][5] Another counterargument to the fifth column theory is one that Polish troops were being targeted by advanced units of German regular army (Heer), or that the shots were fired in the confusion of the mass withdrawal by other Polish soldiers.[18] German historian Christian Raitz von Frentz also claims that Polish troops and civilians massacred German civilians due to confusion.[3]...

 

[Terlot]

Officials and clerks made up 10% of the total population of the former population of the provinses,

Add to that soldiers, merchants that served them (German army was forbidden to buy from Poles) and who moved back, their wives, families, add to them settlers and we will start getting the clear picture.

Beside calling them settlers

No clerks and officials are seperate from around 158.000 settlers from 1880 onwards.
Of course there were earlier settlers. Frederic the Great settled over 300.000 in Polish lands.

unless you count people who have lived in a place for over 100 years for settlers

Doesn't matter if occupation lasts 100 years or 10 it is still occupation.

Okay Hurgan.

What does it mean ? I don't get it ?

The book is anti-Polish in the same way, a book about South Africa is anti-White,

Who claims that ? The quote by the German author says nothing about South Africa.
Quite opposite German Empire has been called an apartheid state.
A History of Modern Germany, 1800-2000: 1800-2000‎ page 130
[SIZE=-1]Martin Kitchen[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In areas where Germans and Poles lived side by side a virtual apartheid existed.


[/SIZE]

Beside you comment about them being non-locals or on their own free will is crap

The book you pointed as good source whily trying to avoid the fact they they weren't local admits that they left on their own free will. Saying its "crap" is a childish argument.

Your last quote concerns acts of pro-Nazi German militias and is outside the topic.

Anyway two points:
A-in any case in no territory that Germany gave back to Poland were Germans majority in any way.
B-the argument that Germany/Prussia can just conquer territories move people to dominate local population and claim territory as its is quite imperialistic and can't be accepted.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

dummnutzer, two examples which show who really ran the show in Imperial Germany:

1) The purely miliary decision to send out wolf packs in an operation certain to bring the US into the war against Germany under orders of radio silence so that the German government could not countermand those orders. Were any of these German officers ever punished for this?

2) The destruction of occupied French coal mines even as Germany begged for a peace treaty. Could the German generals who did this have possibly doubted that France would be allowed to make up the difference by seizing German coal resources for years to come?



I Blame Communism, one minor difference might be that Great Britain never showed the slightest interest in Danish territory while Germany had decided from the start on the permanent dismemberment of Belgium.

 

[I Blame Communism]

I Blame Communism, one minor difference might be that Great Britain never showed the slightest interest in Danish territory while Germany had decided from the start on the permanent dismemberment of Belgium.

I'm dubious about this. The initial German plan was to bribe Belgium, after all, and the September program included only very minor border adjustments. I would appreciate responses to my comments about Upper Silesia and the mysterious shadowy German leadership council of doom, with their iron grip on information.

Terlot, you are not worth arguing with, becuase you are mad. You claim that the ethnic cleansing of eastern Germany was A-ok since those areas were "originally Polish" some thousand years ago. Well, guess what. Slavs come from the Dniepr. Clear out Bohemia, Czechs! This is Celtic land!

People move. Always have, always will. Demographics change. Sometimes the process is nasty and brutal. The extent to which it was in Imperial Germany has been exagerrated, but this is besides the point. Anyone born in an area in which their parents are resident has an inhereant right to be counted for self-determination because its not their fault where they were born, regardless of when there parents arrived. This is why Wroclaw is Polish now, and why Danzig was Germany then. If we base our claims on ethnic boundaries as they were thosuands of years ago before the invention of national self-determination, we find ourselves going back and back until all white people are evacuated from America, or until everybody goes back to the Savanah. What's now is important.

And while it pains me to come down off my pedestal and get nvolved in tit-for-tat nationalism, you appear to me, assuming that you are Polish, to be that kind of Pole who defines his great nation not on its merits, but purely in opposition to Germany. I surmise this from your willingness to dismiss Lwow and Wilno as Ukrainian and Lithuanian wuithout a shred of evidence against the concensus that they were Polish to the core purely in order to make your claims that Poland had every right to Wroclaw look like anything less than Pole-trolling, which is what you are verging on.

I am an admirer and sympathiser with Poland and Germany, so as you can imagine these kind of threads piss me off. But one thing that pisses me off more than anything is members of either nation who believe its sole purpose is to march [compass point] against the other and thus fulfill its national destiny. They got in charge of Germany, and look where that got us.

 

[dummnutzer]

dummnutzer, two examples which show who really ran the show in Imperial Germany:

Both examples happened after war had been declared. A weak Kaiser and a SPD that was willing to do anything to get accepted as a patriotic party are to blame.

Imperial Germany was no modern democracy. But there is a tendency to compare its distorted image created by Allied propaganda with an idealized Britain. Humbug.

In several aspects, it was the most advanced major European nation, e.g. its legal system, worker´s rights and social system. But it admittedly sucked at propaganda.