i was just looking through a book, histortic maps of the modern era (1815-1980), and the page on the treaty of B-L, is very interesting. i dont have access to a scaner now, but will scan it as soon as possible. it shows a very small rump state of poland, a giant Lithuania, Kurland, Livonia and Estonia, along with the Ukraine, a Don Cossack state, and details exactly what land germnay got. it is very interesting, as this is the first time i have actualy seen a good mape of ToBL. it is dates as 1June1918
Treaty of Brest-Litovsk
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
1/3 of Russian territory and 1/4 of Russia's population or vice versa. I'd luv to see a good map.
So Germany gets some Polish territory, an independent Polish state to shuttle to which it can shuttle off all its rebellious Poles, and a double layer of tributary bumper states seperating Germany from the shakily Communist Russia. Not a bad deal. So, what allows these borders to hold? I've always favored the idea that the US doesn't get involved in WWI, so the second Marne Offensive reaches Paris as a good scenario, myself; Germany managed to make some significant gains there. Of course, then the question is what will happen to the borders of Western Europe...
remember, this is a map just after the Treaty, and most of these borders were changed in the ToV. no Kurland or giant Lithuania, for one.this is the first time i have actualy seen a map of the ToBL that isnt just the Baltics/Poland/Ukraine coloured the same colour as Germany...Deflare said:
I was under the impression that the two southernmost Baltic states were part of a larger conglomerate called "The Baltic Duchy," which was to be ruled by a relative of the Kaiser, and that Poland was a bit larger.
Hmm...I'd read that the plans kept changing between B-L and the armistice, so perhaps my info comes a bit later.
The map is cool--it shows us where the Don Cossack state would have been, had they been able to beat off the Bolsheviks.
Hmm...I'd read that the plans kept changing between B-L and the armistice, so perhaps my info comes a bit later.
The map is cool--it shows us where the Don Cossack state would have been, had they been able to beat off the Bolsheviks.
Fascinating. Unfortunately it doesn't give a good view of the Caucasus, but nothing's perfect. Also it's wise to keep in mind that not only are these the most preliminary of German plans, but that often things did not go according to plan, even before the collapse in the West. There's no mention here, for example, of a Tatar state in the Crimea though it existed in much more fact than the nation of Don Cossacks ever did.
I've also heard speculation that Poland and the Baltics were to be incorporated into the Empire of Germany. Based on the borders for Lithuania and Poland, though, that doesn't seem to be what they were thinking at the time of the treaty...
I've also heard speculation that Poland and the Baltics were to be incorporated into the Empire of Germany. Based on the borders for Lithuania and Poland, though, that doesn't seem to be what they were thinking at the time of the treaty...
Glen
Moderator
Admiral Matt said:
From my own recent reading, Poland was to be in the A-H sphere of influence with a King from A-H on the throne (Karl toyed with the idea of becoming king of Poland himself, but another was decided upon). Lithuania was to have a German King on the throne (and one was chosen). The United Baltic Duchy was to have a German as the Duke, but would be part of the German empire under the Kaiser. Interestingly, Finland also got a German King.
Byelarus appeared to have been planned to remain a republic, as far as I can tell, as was Georgia. Ukraine was under a strongman called a Hetman, but had German support.
Bessarabia was in the A-H area of influence, and it seemed would be directly annexed by A-H.
Glen
Moderator
BTW, thanks for the map.
From my readings, I thought that Poland would have gotten a bit more of the area shown as Lithuania, and that Lithuania would have been landlocked by a strip connecting the United Baltic Duchy to the rest of the German Empire, but that could have been shear extrapolation on my part.
From my readings, I thought that Poland would have gotten a bit more of the area shown as Lithuania, and that Lithuania would have been landlocked by a strip connecting the United Baltic Duchy to the rest of the German Empire, but that could have been shear extrapolation on my part.
Glen
Moderator
Imajin said:
I think that would have happened if Karl had taken the crown of Poland for himself. Then it would have been more of an administrative redistribution within the context of the Empire. Once it was to become an independent (loosely) state with just a dynastic link, I don't think the transfer would have happened.