Treaty of Brest-Litovsk post-CP victory map!
- Thread starter Scarecrow
- Start date
I'd expect the Germans to seek out Dutch Limburgh if that is how things are following the war, unless they try and annex the Netherlands entirely.Scarecrow said:tada! new map day! I took the liberty of using some of Bismarks suggestions on how to carve upp France/Belgium, and this is the end result...
now, should ALL of Ireland be free, or just OTL Ireland, with N.Ireland still part of UK.
Bulgaria has taken southern Serbia; should Austria take the north?
what about Albania? I gave a southern bit to Greece, but should Austria get some?
Romania has been given Bessarabia, while Bulgaria has Northern Djuarea
Wendell said:
Look at this thread:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=32182&highlight=dutch
So I did a little research, and found that albania was ironically ruled by a German prince in 1913 but was overthrown shortly after WW1. Maybe in a CP victory, he gets restores to the throne?
Austria can annex Serbia by integrating it as a "state" of its confederation, which will probably be the case anaway.
Anyway, here's a timeline I've created to fit with the map, please comment or tell me if it needs to be changed somehow:
POD: No changes to the original Schlieffen Plan, invasion of Kluck's first army is through Limburg in Holland, and there is no "Seventh Army" in alsace, instead these troops are added to bolster the right wing
August 4, 1914: Invasion of Holland and Belgium begins, troops from von Kluck's army reach the maas river
August 6-11, 1914: Siege of Liege, ends when german forces which already crossed the maas attack the fortress from behind
August 10, 1914: Brussels falls to german forces
mid/late-August:
-Guarded by only a corp's worth of troops, german forces retreat in Alsace. An french offensive in lorraine, however, is spectacularly defeated by the German Sixth Army. The Prince of Bavaria, the acting commander, demands reinforcements to drive the french back, but the high command refuses
-The recently arrived BEF retreats inland to regroup with french forces
August 25, 1914: German forces reach the Somme river
August 27-30, 1914: On the Eastern Front, the Russian 2nd army is annihilated at Tannenburg
August 28, 1914: The French government flees to Bordeaux to escape the expected capulation of Paris
August 31, 1914: Strassburg falls to the French, the high point of french advance in the east
September 1, 1914: German forces cross the Seine west of Paris, von Bulow's and Hausen's army reaches the marne
September 5, 1914: Recrossing the Seine east of Paris, von Kluck's first army traps the BEF in a strategic encirclement, forcing its surrender, however, the french fifth army manages to pull retreat back
September 9-12: Battle of Nancy-The German 4th, 5th, and 6th armies attack the French 1st, 2nd and 3rd armies from behind. The French Second and third Armies are completely annihilated by the encirclement, while the First Army manages to escape badly mauled
September 10-13: In the Eastern Front, Russian forces are driven out of East Prussia
September 10: Verdun, surrounded and heavily bombarded, falls
September 13: Epinal falls
September 16: Belfort, the last fortress town, surrenders to german forces
September 6-18: Siege of Paris-The hastily formed 150,000 man French 6th army retreated into paris to defend the city. On the 14th, German artillery, including Big Bertha howitzers, are brought to shell the city in spite of the risk of civilian casualties (the reason why this didn't happen during the franco-prussian war). An attack commences the same day. By the 18th, Paris is captured.
Situation at the end of September: Despite the huge military defeat suffered, the French have still not surrendered. The German general staff can't help but to think that they where in a similar situation during the Franco-Prussian War. However, this time, France still has its British and Russian allies fighting for them. German forces are started to be transferred to the east to help the situation there.
Late October/Early November: With the arrival of forces from the east, a new offensive is planned to wipe out the russian army before larger forces can arrive. A dual offensive is planned, with one end in east prussia, the other in silesia facing poland, to destroy the majority of russian forces by encirclement. The offensive is a success, capturing Warsaw, and the "Battle of Vistula River" yields 80,000 Russian casualties and 300,000 prisoners at the cost of 40,000 German casualties. With the Russian front collapsing, A-H pitches in a massive offensive in the east too, forcing the russians in a headlong retreat
November: With the austrians focused on the russians, the serbian army takes advantage by launching an offensive, liberating belgrade and driving the austrian out of serbia. Meanwhile, the ottoman empire has been eyeing an alliance with German and A-H. An incident where british ships transvered turkish territory in pursuit of german ships have incited ottoman anger. And Russia is already a long-hated enemy of turkey. However, Germany asks the Ottomans to stay out of the war for the being, until an offensive to the Suez is achievable, and until serbia is cleared to make room for a berlin-baghdad railroad
Winter, 1914-5: German and Austrian forces have driven the Russians to a line streching from Riga, along the Dvina river to Dvinsk, south across Belorussia to the carpathian mountains. Tzar Nicholas has been agitated by the military disasters and has taken command of the russian army himself. However, things seem to be only worsening for russia, as turkey has closed shipments across the bosporus, effectively cutting russia's only viable source for supplies from britain. France finally surrenders in December, agreeing to the peace terms I mentioned earlier.
Feburary 1915: Bulgaria joins the central powers in exchange for receiving parts of serbian macedonia. Serbia quickly falls as austrian, german, and bulgarian troops completely overrun its territory. Meanwhile, Turkey declares war on britain and russia, and launches offensives toward the suez canal.
To be continued...
Austria can annex Serbia by integrating it as a "state" of its confederation, which will probably be the case anaway.
Anyway, here's a timeline I've created to fit with the map, please comment or tell me if it needs to be changed somehow:
POD: No changes to the original Schlieffen Plan, invasion of Kluck's first army is through Limburg in Holland, and there is no "Seventh Army" in alsace, instead these troops are added to bolster the right wing
August 4, 1914: Invasion of Holland and Belgium begins, troops from von Kluck's army reach the maas river
August 6-11, 1914: Siege of Liege, ends when german forces which already crossed the maas attack the fortress from behind
August 10, 1914: Brussels falls to german forces
mid/late-August:
-Guarded by only a corp's worth of troops, german forces retreat in Alsace. An french offensive in lorraine, however, is spectacularly defeated by the German Sixth Army. The Prince of Bavaria, the acting commander, demands reinforcements to drive the french back, but the high command refuses
-The recently arrived BEF retreats inland to regroup with french forces
August 25, 1914: German forces reach the Somme river
August 27-30, 1914: On the Eastern Front, the Russian 2nd army is annihilated at Tannenburg
August 28, 1914: The French government flees to Bordeaux to escape the expected capulation of Paris
August 31, 1914: Strassburg falls to the French, the high point of french advance in the east
September 1, 1914: German forces cross the Seine west of Paris, von Bulow's and Hausen's army reaches the marne
September 5, 1914: Recrossing the Seine east of Paris, von Kluck's first army traps the BEF in a strategic encirclement, forcing its surrender, however, the french fifth army manages to pull retreat back
September 9-12: Battle of Nancy-The German 4th, 5th, and 6th armies attack the French 1st, 2nd and 3rd armies from behind. The French Second and third Armies are completely annihilated by the encirclement, while the First Army manages to escape badly mauled
September 10-13: In the Eastern Front, Russian forces are driven out of East Prussia
September 10: Verdun, surrounded and heavily bombarded, falls
September 13: Epinal falls
September 16: Belfort, the last fortress town, surrenders to german forces
September 6-18: Siege of Paris-The hastily formed 150,000 man French 6th army retreated into paris to defend the city. On the 14th, German artillery, including Big Bertha howitzers, are brought to shell the city in spite of the risk of civilian casualties (the reason why this didn't happen during the franco-prussian war). An attack commences the same day. By the 18th, Paris is captured.
Situation at the end of September: Despite the huge military defeat suffered, the French have still not surrendered. The German general staff can't help but to think that they where in a similar situation during the Franco-Prussian War. However, this time, France still has its British and Russian allies fighting for them. German forces are started to be transferred to the east to help the situation there.
Late October/Early November: With the arrival of forces from the east, a new offensive is planned to wipe out the russian army before larger forces can arrive. A dual offensive is planned, with one end in east prussia, the other in silesia facing poland, to destroy the majority of russian forces by encirclement. The offensive is a success, capturing Warsaw, and the "Battle of Vistula River" yields 80,000 Russian casualties and 300,000 prisoners at the cost of 40,000 German casualties. With the Russian front collapsing, A-H pitches in a massive offensive in the east too, forcing the russians in a headlong retreat
November: With the austrians focused on the russians, the serbian army takes advantage by launching an offensive, liberating belgrade and driving the austrian out of serbia. Meanwhile, the ottoman empire has been eyeing an alliance with German and A-H. An incident where british ships transvered turkish territory in pursuit of german ships have incited ottoman anger. And Russia is already a long-hated enemy of turkey. However, Germany asks the Ottomans to stay out of the war for the being, until an offensive to the Suez is achievable, and until serbia is cleared to make room for a berlin-baghdad railroad
Winter, 1914-5: German and Austrian forces have driven the Russians to a line streching from Riga, along the Dvina river to Dvinsk, south across Belorussia to the carpathian mountains. Tzar Nicholas has been agitated by the military disasters and has taken command of the russian army himself. However, things seem to be only worsening for russia, as turkey has closed shipments across the bosporus, effectively cutting russia's only viable source for supplies from britain. France finally surrenders in December, agreeing to the peace terms I mentioned earlier.
Feburary 1915: Bulgaria joins the central powers in exchange for receiving parts of serbian macedonia. Serbia quickly falls as austrian, german, and bulgarian troops completely overrun its territory. Meanwhile, Turkey declares war on britain and russia, and launches offensives toward the suez canal.
To be continued...
Continued:
In other theaters, Britain has annexed Togoland, and German concessions in the SW pacific with relatively little bloodshed. Invasions into German OstAfrika and Cameroon were both defeated, and the Maritz Rebellion in South africa prevented an invasino of Deustch-Sudwestafrika. In Tsingtao, the naval squadron has left, anticipating the city's capture. One light cruiser, the Emden, goes into the indian ocean for raiding, while the rest head east. The Emden has huge success raiding dutch and british ships in the indian ocean. The sinking and capturing of a dozen and a half ships has caused huge panic among the British. In late september, the Emden shelled Madras, bursting the city's oil tank and causing more panic. In october, two allied crusiers were also sunk. Finally, in early november, the Emden was sunk by an australian warship.
The rest of the naval squadron headed east, also acheives much sucess in commercial raiding. The naval squadron managed to sink to British cruisers at Coronel, and on Dec. 8, arrived at the Falkland islands. Admiral Graf Spee, with his crews battle-weary, decided to take the port and convert it into a naval base. Shelling british ships in the habor, the falkland islands fell . While the capture of the Falkland Islands was an immense detriment to british shipping, the british partook in a siege of island, and recaptured it a few months later, bringing an end to german commercial raiding.
Germany, infuriated that britain would not seek peace terms and their blockade of german ports, launched a campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare. The primary base for operations was set up in Calais. Sucess of the U-boats increased, as U-boats sank 50,000 tonnes of british ships in feburary, over 100,000 in April, and nearly 200,000 in August.
Meanwhile, in the east, Tsar Nicholas decided he neeeded a larger, offensive in order to reverse the tide of the war. Gathering huge amounts of conscripts, Russia's offensive commenced in early 1915. It was a huge failure, as often-poorly trained russian forces failed to break the increasing strong german lines. Russian forces gain little territory and suffer horrendous casualties. Achieving the most success, however, is Brusilov achieve a success far lesser than the one in OTL b/c there is no italian front for the austrians, but still manages to driven them back.
Finally, in may 1915, a german offensive in riga manages to capture the city. The islands of Dagel and Osel and captured by the Hochseeflotte, and leningrad harbor is shelled. The breakthroughs across the Niemen, and a german-support counteroffensive against brusilov are starting to starting to make the tsar think about asking for peace.
In other theaters, Britain has annexed Togoland, and German concessions in the SW pacific with relatively little bloodshed. Invasions into German OstAfrika and Cameroon were both defeated, and the Maritz Rebellion in South africa prevented an invasino of Deustch-Sudwestafrika. In Tsingtao, the naval squadron has left, anticipating the city's capture. One light cruiser, the Emden, goes into the indian ocean for raiding, while the rest head east. The Emden has huge success raiding dutch and british ships in the indian ocean. The sinking and capturing of a dozen and a half ships has caused huge panic among the British. In late september, the Emden shelled Madras, bursting the city's oil tank and causing more panic. In october, two allied crusiers were also sunk. Finally, in early november, the Emden was sunk by an australian warship.
The rest of the naval squadron headed east, also acheives much sucess in commercial raiding. The naval squadron managed to sink to British cruisers at Coronel, and on Dec. 8, arrived at the Falkland islands. Admiral Graf Spee, with his crews battle-weary, decided to take the port and convert it into a naval base. Shelling british ships in the habor, the falkland islands fell . While the capture of the Falkland Islands was an immense detriment to british shipping, the british partook in a siege of island, and recaptured it a few months later, bringing an end to german commercial raiding.
Germany, infuriated that britain would not seek peace terms and their blockade of german ports, launched a campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare. The primary base for operations was set up in Calais. Sucess of the U-boats increased, as U-boats sank 50,000 tonnes of british ships in feburary, over 100,000 in April, and nearly 200,000 in August.
Meanwhile, in the east, Tsar Nicholas decided he neeeded a larger, offensive in order to reverse the tide of the war. Gathering huge amounts of conscripts, Russia's offensive commenced in early 1915. It was a huge failure, as often-poorly trained russian forces failed to break the increasing strong german lines. Russian forces gain little territory and suffer horrendous casualties. Achieving the most success, however, is Brusilov achieve a success far lesser than the one in OTL b/c there is no italian front for the austrians, but still manages to driven them back.
Finally, in may 1915, a german offensive in riga manages to capture the city. The islands of Dagel and Osel and captured by the Hochseeflotte, and leningrad harbor is shelled. The breakthroughs across the Niemen, and a german-support counteroffensive against brusilov are starting to starting to make the tsar think about asking for peace.
Will you be continuing this timeline/thread? I hope so, it's very
interesting. Thought you could use some encouragement
interesting. Thought you could use some encouragement
Alright, I'll continue it. I'm thinking about turning this into one of the AHs scenarios which are posted on the board, though now its still informal.
By 1915, the war between Britain and Germany had started to become nearly pointless. "Brave little Belgium" had been the rallying cry early in the war, but British propaganda had only started to take effect when the military situation in france collapsed. The defeats were a huge blow to morale, and combined with reverses on the eastern front (much of which had been censured to the public, with some success), terms for peace where beginning to be drawn up. However, the fundamental differences in how to redivide europe hindered the chance for an effective negotiation. Britain considered demands, such as the recognition of the duchy of Flanders-Wallonia (a german protectorate which includes most of belgium and northern france), the transfer of the demanded french colonies to german control, etc., to be outrageous.
Britain's plan now was basically to starve off germany with a blockade. Simutaneously, some of the french colonies were occupied by britain, as it tried to extract benefit from the war.
The success of the U-boat campaign encouraged the Hochseeflotte to continue and expand its campaign. However, the most important factor for defeating britain was the capture of the suez, the "lifeline" of the British empire.
Turkey entered the war in Feburary 1, 1915, invading british egypt only one day later. Turkey's entry into war was delayed because the germans wanted the attack on the suez to be a surpise. The rainy season provided optimal conditions for such an invasion to take place. In addition, the time coincided with the fall of serbia, allowing the berlin-baghdad railroad to be complete.
German-Turkish trade began, as supplies of arms from germany headed down the railroad, while supplies of oil returned back.
The offensive on the suez started off with a march across the sinai to the canal. British forces there were overpowered, and the crossing was undertaken by rafts. From there, the offensive continued into cairo and alexandria. The loss of the suez had cut the connection to the eastern parts of the british empire and had created a new front.
In June of 1915, anti-british risings broke out in Ireland, alledgedly supported by a german plot. The IRB resorted to guerrilla tactics, as it was certain that it was the only way for such a rebellion to be successful. Despite a negative initial reaction to the IRA's violent tactics, harsh british retaliation only increased anti-british sentiment. The war created quite a stir in Britain.
Meanwhile, the situation in the middle east opened up a new front for britain. Mostly under the urgings of the Lord of Admiralty Chruchill, Britain decided to undertake a campaign in the dardenelles to knock turkey out of the war, and help reverse russian defeats. This was to be combined with a counteroffensive in egypt to possibly recapture the suez.
On July 26, 1915, the armistice between russia and germany was signed. Peace neogitations were finished in september, creating the new states of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Poland, Ukraine, and Georgia. The Don cossacks would also have an independent state on the eastern edge of the Don. Dagestan is annexed by turkey.
Estonia, Latvia, and Courland are combined into one state and integrated into the german empire. Baltic German nobility is restored. A small coastal strip along the Lituanian coastline is annexed to provide a connection between this baltic region and east prussia. The vertical "strip" of land east of east prussia and west of the Niemen River is annexed by Germany.
To be continued (again)...
By 1915, the war between Britain and Germany had started to become nearly pointless. "Brave little Belgium" had been the rallying cry early in the war, but British propaganda had only started to take effect when the military situation in france collapsed. The defeats were a huge blow to morale, and combined with reverses on the eastern front (much of which had been censured to the public, with some success), terms for peace where beginning to be drawn up. However, the fundamental differences in how to redivide europe hindered the chance for an effective negotiation. Britain considered demands, such as the recognition of the duchy of Flanders-Wallonia (a german protectorate which includes most of belgium and northern france), the transfer of the demanded french colonies to german control, etc., to be outrageous.
Britain's plan now was basically to starve off germany with a blockade. Simutaneously, some of the french colonies were occupied by britain, as it tried to extract benefit from the war.
The success of the U-boat campaign encouraged the Hochseeflotte to continue and expand its campaign. However, the most important factor for defeating britain was the capture of the suez, the "lifeline" of the British empire.
Turkey entered the war in Feburary 1, 1915, invading british egypt only one day later. Turkey's entry into war was delayed because the germans wanted the attack on the suez to be a surpise. The rainy season provided optimal conditions for such an invasion to take place. In addition, the time coincided with the fall of serbia, allowing the berlin-baghdad railroad to be complete.
German-Turkish trade began, as supplies of arms from germany headed down the railroad, while supplies of oil returned back.
The offensive on the suez started off with a march across the sinai to the canal. British forces there were overpowered, and the crossing was undertaken by rafts. From there, the offensive continued into cairo and alexandria. The loss of the suez had cut the connection to the eastern parts of the british empire and had created a new front.
In June of 1915, anti-british risings broke out in Ireland, alledgedly supported by a german plot. The IRB resorted to guerrilla tactics, as it was certain that it was the only way for such a rebellion to be successful. Despite a negative initial reaction to the IRA's violent tactics, harsh british retaliation only increased anti-british sentiment. The war created quite a stir in Britain.
Meanwhile, the situation in the middle east opened up a new front for britain. Mostly under the urgings of the Lord of Admiralty Chruchill, Britain decided to undertake a campaign in the dardenelles to knock turkey out of the war, and help reverse russian defeats. This was to be combined with a counteroffensive in egypt to possibly recapture the suez.
On July 26, 1915, the armistice between russia and germany was signed. Peace neogitations were finished in september, creating the new states of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, Poland, Ukraine, and Georgia. The Don cossacks would also have an independent state on the eastern edge of the Don. Dagestan is annexed by turkey.
Estonia, Latvia, and Courland are combined into one state and integrated into the german empire. Baltic German nobility is restored. A small coastal strip along the Lituanian coastline is annexed to provide a connection between this baltic region and east prussia. The vertical "strip" of land east of east prussia and west of the Niemen River is annexed by Germany.
To be continued (again)...
How about a new Poland-Lithuania? It could be useful as a buffer against Russia once it calms down.
ES
ES
Scarecrow said:tada! new map day! I took the liberty of using some of Bismarks suggestions on how to carve upp France/Belgium, and this is the end result...
now, should ALL of Ireland be free, or just OTL Ireland, with N.Ireland still part of UK.
Bulgaria has taken southern Serbia; should Austria take the north?
what about Albania? I gave a southern bit to Greece, but should Austria get some?
Romania has been given Bessarabia, while Bulgaria has Northern Djuarea
I was laughing to death at that caption: "Northern Ireland-Should it be Irish?"
Please, scarecrow, I beg you to create a new map, they are so damn awesome!!! I could never make maps myself.
I also suggest the following changes (I mentioned some of them before, but just to sum it up):
-Libya remains Italian
-Vertical "strip" east of East Prussia and West of Niemen River annexed by germany
-Pas-de-Calais is part of Flanders-Wallonia (german protectorate), only the "coastal strip" between dunkirk and bolougne is annexed by Germany (and turned into costal towns)
-Northern Ireland is Irish
-French Civil War results in an Orleanist King restored to power
-Russia=still in civil war
-Austria-Hungary divided into the following empires:
-Poland (includes galicia), governed by austrian archduke stefan
-Austria (includes parts 1, 9, 11, 8, 14, 12, 10, 3, 15, 13, 4, 7, 5)
-Hungary (part 16)
-Kingdom of Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes (parts 17, 18, with serbia and montenegro included)
Does Bukovina go to Romania, or Poland? Also, by 1915, the Ottoman Empire no longer extends that far north.Bismarck said:I was laughing to death at that caption: "Northern Ireland-Should it be Irish?"
Please, scarecrow, I beg you to create a new map, they are so damn awesome!!! I could never make maps myself.
I also suggest the following changes (I mentioned some of them before, but just to sum it up):
-Libya remains Italian
-Vertical "strip" east of East Prussia and West of Niemen River annexed by germany
-Pas-de-Calais is part of Flanders-Wallonia (german protectorate), only the "coastal strip" between dunkirk and bolougne is annexed by Germany (and turned into costal towns)
-Northern Ireland is Irish
-French Civil War results in an Orleanist King restored to power
-Russia=still in civil war
-Austria-Hungary divided into the following empires:
-Poland (includes galicia), governed by austrian archduke stefan
-Austria (includes parts 1, 9, 11, 8, 14, 12, 10, 3, 15, 13, 4, 7, 5)
-Hungary (part 16)
-Kingdom of Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes (parts 17, 18, with serbia and montenegro included)
Wendell said:
I think Austria would keep Bukovina: after 1917 otl it was suggested by the Germans that Austria should give Galicia to the 'kingdom of Poland' and seek compensation from Romania (ie, absorbing the whole country). I think a more realistic view would be the current scenario with border rectifications in Austria's favour. Since Romania is the loser in this war they are in no position to demand anything; Poland likewise can't demand any more than is given because it exists at the CP's pleasure. Germany would surely invade if they didn't behave themselves. In OTL they almost invaded the Ukraine because the post - Russian government was very uncooperative in acquiesing to demands for oil and wheat.
Austria, Hungary, and the Croat/Serb/Sloveninan states would probably all be satiellites of germany.
I would think that austria, while desired to be unified by many Germans, would not be b/c of the catolic influences could cause a shift in the entire political situation. Instead, Austria should become a virtual protectorate of Germany, with a military and economic union, but still nominally and politically independent.
I would think that austria, while desired to be unified by many Germans, would not be b/c of the catolic influences could cause a shift in the entire political situation. Instead, Austria should become a virtual protectorate of Germany, with a military and economic union, but still nominally and politically independent.