Yeah, Teutonic army would certainly develop differently here. I guess that they would use a lot of Cuman/Vlach auxiliaries of their own (just like they used Prussians). On the other hand, region is mountainous which is not well suited for steppe tactics. IMO they would slowly crawl into enemy territory, build fortified outpost, expand a little bit again, build castle etc. just like they did OTL.
Transylvanian Teutons
- Thread starter Paraipan
- Start date
Yeah, Teutonic army would certainly develop differently here. I guess that they would use a lot of Cuman/Vlach auxiliaries of their own (just like they used Prussians). On the other hand, region is mountainous which is not well suited for steppe tactics. IMO they would slowly crawl into enemy territory, build fortified outpost, expand a little bit again, build castle etc. just like they did OTL.
The germanization of the wallahs wont be realised in the 1200 hudreds. The teutons will have soon other problems. After all the mongols are coming. In 1244 the mongol horde depopulated hungary. Almost half of its population died. Only the seclers of transilvania managed to resist the invasion and that is just because they where in the mounteins and trapad the mongols in mountein pases.
abc123
Banned
IMO they are still nomads, after all, they did OTL kill a king of Hungaria and Croatia in 1290:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_IV_of_Hungary
They still have their nomadic habbits, yes. But they were present in Wallachia and Moldavia, for a long time by now.
Here's the update. Kept this one short too, because there's not too much to tell about the first Cuman Crusade. If you feel I've neglected something important, please tell me.
III
In 1226, after consolidating their hold on the Burzenland, and over some other neighbouring lands from the Altland (Fagaras), the Teutons started incursions over the Carpathians, into Cumania (Wallachia). Soon, Hermann von Salza was granted by the Pope, the task of converting the Cumans, a task which had been previously held by the Kings of Hungary. The Teutons expedition grew in strenght and organization after this document was officialized by the Pope and von Salza.
The first Teutonic campaign in Cumania began in late 1226, and the Teutons followed the course of the Ialomita River. Although officially known as the „Cuman Crusade”, with the objective of converting the pagan Cumans, most of the fighting was done against the Christian Orthodox Vlachs. The Vlachs had recently set up several states, or „Cnezates” or „Voivodates”, independent of Cuman rule. These small Voivodes, were either under the suzeranity of the Second Bulgarian Empire, or of the Hungarian King.
The campaign started with the Teutons following the Prahova Valley, out of the Carpathians, and then moving on the Ialomita. The area was controlled by the Voivodate of Miselav, who quickly gathered his forces and went to face the invading Teutons. He also sent a complain to the Pope, mentioning that the so called „Cuman Crusade” was fought against fellow Christians. Von Salza manage to convince the Pope, that the Vlachs were following Ortodoxy, and it was his job to bring them under the word of the Pope in Rome. Miselav attempted to ambush the Teutons, but the Knights managed to move quickly and escaped the dangerous, abrupt valleys of the Carpathians. The decisive battle was fought in the early 1227, somewhere on the Ialomita River, and the Teutons had won a clear victory. Miselav died in battle and the Teutons continued their advance, capturing Targoviste, the main city of the region.
From Targoviste, (Tergowisch in German, a word derived from the Slavic word for „market”), the Teutons split their forces, an army heading west for Miselav’s capital, Curtea de Arges (Argisch in German), while the second army, going east capturing the young city that in OTL will become modern Ploiesti. The name Ploiesti is derived from the Romanian word for „rain”, after an old legen about an old shepherd, named Ploaie (Rain), who founded the city. Thus the Teutons renamed the place „Regensdorf”. Argisch, also fell by June, and the Teutons established the new Diocese of Cumania in the city.
The three cities (the biggest cities the Teutons had captured so far), renamed Neumarkt (Targoviste), Argisch Hofstaat (Curtea de Arges) and Regensdorf (Ploiesti), were soon expanded and fortified by the Teutons. Also Germanic settlers were brought in, while the Vlach population was going through some rough times. Most of the Vlachs, who refused Catholocism, fled in the neighbouring Vlach voivodates.
Soon, von Salza set his sights on the Western bank of the Olt River, where the Voivode Farkas was ruling. Farkas was a vassal of Bela IV, so the Hochmeister had to delay his plans. Bela was back in Hungary, after his unsuccessful campaign in Halych. He planed to regain some of his royal power, lost in the past years. He also wanted back some royal domains, granted to different nobles, as a reward for their help against his father. One of the lands Bela looked upon with greed was the Teutonic Burzenland. Also the King wanted the revoke the autonomy that the Saxons of Transylvania enjoyed.
Next, the struggle for the Saxon Seats.
And here's a map. Highlited, the Teutonic lands.
The Mongols, will deffinetly cause a lot of chaos, but in the end, the Teutons will survive, just as the Szeklers and Vlachs, by retreating in the mountains. And when the Mongols leave, they could only prosper thanks to the power vacuum. I'm more worried about the Ottomans, because when they will arrive, unlike the Mongols, they intend to stay. I'm thinking of having the Ottomans destroyed in their infancy, but how would I do that ? Any thoughts ?
Why does killing a king makes you a nomad ? And after their defeat at Kalka, against the Mongols, Bela IV invited them to settle in Hungary ...
Valdemar II
Banned
I personal don't think the Ottomans the Ottoman is a large problem in fact they may offer the perfect oppotunity for a grand master to make his possessions a secular fief. Maybe with the earlier hit, the Transsylvanian Teutonics could adopt some kind of heresy, maybe a kind of proto-Lutheranism like the Hussite or the Waldensian heresy.
Of course if you want to kill the Ottomans, well it was the westermost Turkish statelet, if the Nicean Empire settle converted Cuman, Slavic and Vlach refugees on the frontier, the Ottomans may fail to set up viable state in the area when the Sultanate of Rum collapse. Especially converted Cuman, if they have kept their traditional methods of warfare, may be a problem for Turkish invaders, while the Vlach lifestyle make them hard to push out of a territories unless you really go after them (like the Teutonics does in TTL). As such I could the Nicean Empire's Anatolian provinces survive for a longer time, in fact they may only collapse when Tamerlane invade Anatolia. This ensure that any Turkish state invading the Balkans may only happen after 1400, which more or less mean that they hit the Teutonic at the same time as the Reformation hit, where the Turks protection could be useful, and they end up a vassal.
Arrix85
Donor
Good TL! Usually I'm not very interested in this period and this is really original (not an area usually covered).
I agree that the Mongols and the power vacuum they'll leave will be a huge opportunity. Don't know how to defuse the Ottomans, but Valdemar's solution seems pretty neat, but a delay of turkish penetrations I think would butterfly completely the Ottomans, maybe another turkish state could rise, but...
I agree that the Mongols and the power vacuum they'll leave will be a huge opportunity. Don't know how to defuse the Ottomans, but Valdemar's solution seems pretty neat, but a delay of turkish penetrations I think would butterfly completely the Ottomans, maybe another turkish state could rise, but...
In the other hand, a destruction of the Teutonic Order by the Ottomans would be interesting too. The Ottomans could probably destroy the order, but by then the local population would already be German or Germanized. It would only create a power vacuum that could be filled by ambitious nobles, city states, or other new solution.
Arrix85
Donor
The more I think about it the more the rise of the Ottomans seems a good thing for the order, in OTL the order lost support after the christianization of Lithuania, but the rise of a powerful muslim power? provides them with support from other christian countries. on the long run it could be key for their survival (or more correctly their being relevant).
Thanks! The new update, either tonight, or if I don't finish it in time, tomorrow.
We'll see what happens. I'm not sure what will I do in those matters. I think the Turks will develop pretty much as OTL. Halting their growth, might give me too many problems in the future. But so does not halting it ... though decision.
Thank's a lot ! And yeah, what will happen with the Turks is still a dilemma for me.
I was thinking the Teutons would last until the XVI century in one form or the other. But this could be interesting too.
I'm afraid the Ottomans are too powerful. Yes, bordering the Ottomans would make their existance more relevant, but what happens when the Hochmeister is forced to kiss the Sultan's slippers ? Imagine the outrage in Western Europe...
Valdemar II
Banned
Of course another element is what is happening in the Baltic states? Will we see the Teutonic dominate that too, or will the Livonian Order stay separate from the Teutonics, will the Poles invite the Teutonics to Prussia? It seem that they already did it before the Knights was thrown out of Transsylvania, so we may see the order own land both in Hungary and in the east baltic. That may in fact allow them to deal better with the Ottomans, if the northern branch funds them, it will also have the secondary effect to give northern Teutonic a goal and a excuse for ruling their domains (to fund holy war with the Ottomans)
I think Konrad invited them in Prussia, after they were expelled from Transylvania, in OTL. I'm not sure if the Teutons holding both Prussia and Transylvania\Romania would work. Von Salza might accept Konrad's offer, but eventually, the Teutons crusading in Prussia will develop into a different semi-independent branch. I would see Poland more successful in Prussia, while Courland, Estonia and Livonia under this new branch of the Order. Speaking of which, when was the Livonian Order founded ? Before, or after my POD ?
Edit : Before my POD. The Bishop of Riga founded the Livonian Brothers of the Sword in 1202, and they merged with the Teutonic Order, only in 1236 (after my POD).
I support having Nicaea do better than OTL, on the Ottoman issue.
Doesn't have to be by very much - but a relatively easy set of changes (butterflies) can make it so that a Muslim Turkish power invading Europe never comes up.
Of course, that might be going further than you want, but it is an effective solution.
With or without more Cumans and Vlach going there.
Vague post is vague, since there are several ways to go about it - having Charles of Anjou never take Sicily makes a big difference.
Having Theodore II live longer (assuming he's capable) might be better than Michael VIII, too.
Doesn't have to be by very much - but a relatively easy set of changes (butterflies) can make it so that a Muslim Turkish power invading Europe never comes up.
Of course, that might be going further than you want, but it is an effective solution.
With or without more Cumans and Vlach going there.
Vague post is vague, since there are several ways to go about it - having Charles of Anjou never take Sicily makes a big difference.
Having Theodore II live longer (assuming he's capable) might be better than Michael VIII, too.
That's what I'm fearing. Removing the Ottomans from history, would have some important effects in the long run, which could get me in over my head.
Another question. What if the Epirotes took Constantinople (1226 was the year they came close, I think) ?
Anything in particular you're worried about, or just how that makes things go Very Differently?
I don't know enough about the Epirotes to say, but it would have some interesting consequences in regards to a revived Byzantium.
More presence in the Balkans, less in Asia Minor, perhaps. (to start with)
I don't quite understand what you're saying ...
I'm worried about how different Europe will be without the Ottoman Empire ...
I think I'm going to look deeper into this ...