Transylvanian Teutons

Although I'm free this week until Friday, I might not have the time to write an update. I have to present a paper at school on Monday and I didn't even started it. But I'll definetly write a new update when I find the time and inspiration, so don't worry, this TL won't die even if it has it's periods of silence. Anyway, next update will involve Teutons and Hungarians (and some Bulgarians maybe).
 
Just finished reading this thread. Good stuff; wanted to do something similar ever since I read about the Teutonic Order's time in Burzenland, but it seem I don't have to do so now that I have discovered this. :D

About Novgorod and its dependency on Muscovite grain; (From the discussion six months or so ago)
Wouldn't a weaker Teutonic presence in the Baltic region, and thus also a *much* weaker Hanseatic League, open up for trade between Novgorod and, say, Poland? OTL, Novgorod was pretty much denied the chance to trade in the Baltic by the Hansa without the Hansa at least acting as middlemen, and Poland probably didn't have full control of its own trade either. (What with Danzig and so on being in German hands for such a long time.)

Let's say Poland manages to get its hands on Prussia at an earlier date, and Novgorod has full control of its own trade - and perhaps its own Baltic port. Why not make Novgorod start importing Polish grain instead? It might not be an effective strategy in the long run, but access to the sea and a good trading relationship between the two would still greatly benefit them both.

Novgorod managing to gain Estonia could also solve many of its food-related issues. Livonia was the breadbasket of the Swedish empire at one point, after all.
 
Just finished reading this thread. Good stuff; wanted to do something similar ever since I read about the Teutonic Order's time in Burzenland, but it seem I don't have to do so now that I have discovered this. :D

About Novgorod and its dependency on Muscovite grain; (From the discussion six months or so ago)
Wouldn't a weaker Teutonic presence in the Baltic region, and thus also a *much* weaker Hanseatic League, open up for trade between Novgorod and, say, Poland? OTL, Novgorod was pretty much denied the chance to trade in the Baltic by the Hansa without the Hansa at least acting as middlemen, and Poland probably didn't have full control of its own trade either. (What with Danzig and so on being in German hands for such a long time.)

Let's say Poland manages to get its hands on Prussia at an earlier date, and Novgorod has full control of its own trade - and perhaps its own Baltic port. Why not make Novgorod start importing Polish grain instead? It might not be an effective strategy in the long run, but access to the sea and a good trading relationship between the two would still greatly benefit them both.

Novgorod managing to gain Estonia could also solve many of its food-related issues. Livonia was the breadbasket of the Swedish empire at one point, after all.

Thank you for the appreciation and welcome to the thread. Also, thanks for taking the time to read the whole thread, I know it's hard to start reading a TL when it already has thirteen pages.

You have a good point here. If the Order isn't there to deny Poland's acces to the Baltic and no Hanseatic monopoly over trade in the region, Poland might become an important trade partner for the Baltic countries, including Novgorod. As you've said it it would be beneficial for everyone. I'm going to look into this.

Estonia could provide the food supply for Novgorod too, but I had other plans for Estonia and Livonia, but maybe I could change them, I don't know. The Polish option is more interesting, though.

Anyway, when I started the thread, I never imagined I will have problems like this, involving Novgorod, Poland, or the Byzantine and Latin Empires, I only planned to cover the Teutonic Order and Hungary, maybe Bulgaria too. Funny how the ramifications reach regions I never planned to write about.
 
Here we go again. Hopefully this time I'll be able to really get back on this TL. Here's a short chapter updating Russia and Livonia, hope you guys will like it.



XIII

Part I



Banished by the boyars from Novgorod soon after his victory over the Swedes in 1240, because of his growing influence in the semi-republican government, Alexander Nevsky returned from exile in 1241 at the request of the same boyars who had expelled him. Now faced with a new threat the Novgorodian boyars had to swallow their pride and ask the young Prince to save them again, this time from the invading Livonian Order. The Order, after successfully subduing the Estonians in 1240, invaded Pskov, capturing the small Rus Principality and made plans for a somewhat unrealistic invasion of Novgorod. Nevsky returned in Novgorod in the spring of 1241, gathered an army and drove back the invaders, recapturing Pskov. Over the course of the next year small skirmishes were fought around Pskov, with no side emerging as victors in the conflict until April 1242, when Nevsky faked a retreat in order to draw the overconfident Livonian Knights in a full scale battle. The Knights took the bait and were drawn on the frozen Lake Peipus were the Livonians backed up by Teutonic and Danish Knights, as well as Estonian auxiliaries, totaling somewhere between 1500 and 2000 men, met the 4000 men Rus army commanded by Alexander and his brother Andrei. Heavily outnumbered but confident because of their heavy cavalry, the crusaders were slaughtered by the Rus foot soldiers and archers [1].

Despite his instructions to return to Novgorod after defeating the Knights, Nevsky continued the campaign entering the almost undefended Livonia and Estonia conquering the Duchy of Estonia from the Danes and the rest of the Livonian Order’s territory stopping at the Daugava River, completely destroying the Livonian Order, whose surviving members retreated in Prussia and joined the Teutonic Order. The Roman Catholic Bishoprics of Riga, Dorpat and Osel-Wiek were destroyed and the natives recently converted to Catholicism by the Livonian Order were forced to embrace Orthodoxy. Before returning to Novgorod, Nevsky went to Pskov where the local boyars wanted to elect one of their own as Prince, but Alexander forced the Pskovians to elect him. Back in Novgorod, Alexander, having learnt his lesson after being exiled following his victory over the Swedes, managed to crush his opposition, exiling some of the boyars who opposed him two years ago, strengthening his position as Prince of Novgorod, slowly transforming the aristocratic republic into a despotic monarchy after the Byzantine model. Relatively safe from the Mongol threat and now encompassing Pskov, Livonia and Estonia, Novgorod’s position as the leading Russian state looked unchallengeable.



[1] In OTL the Crusader's forces at Lake Peipus were higher and although still losing the battle, their casualties were lower. In my timeline, due to a reduced presence of knights in Prussia and Livonia, instead of 4000 men as in OTL, they only had 2000 men, giving Nevsky the chance to totally annihilate them.
 
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Novgorod did very well in that update. The crusaders I think are have a massive setback in converting the baltic people to catholicism.

Also how germanize is Romania and Prussia at the momment?
 
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I think the Silesian and Mazovian Piasts would be more equal this time, the Teutons kinda boosted the Mazovian Piasts, I think the Silesian Piasts will ally with Novgorod against Mazovia.
 
Hmmm... I'm not sure that the Novgorodian Republic could have been pushed over so easily. And I'm sure the Danes and the Teutonic order won't let Novgorod keep their new territories without trying to get them back.
But it's good that this TL is back!
 
The Livonian Brothers retreat all the way to Prussia after being forced across the Daugava... what is the status of Courland?
 
Novgorod did very well in that update. The crusaders I think are have a massive setback in converting the baltic people to catholicism.

That's right.

Also how germanize is Romania and Prussia at the momment?

In modern OTL Romania only Transilvania is heavily germanized. In Wallachia only the urban population is Germanic, the rural one is made of Vlachs and some Cumans who didn't fled to Thesalia. They are undergoing a harsh process of Catholicization and Germanization, just like the OTL Baltic natives.

I think the Silesian and Mazovian Piasts would be more equal this time, the Teutons kinda boosted the Mazovian Piasts, I think the Silesian Piasts will ally with Novgorod against Mazovia.

I must admit, I don't think so far ahead, but your points are valid.

Hmmm... I'm not sure that the Novgorodian Republic could have been pushed over so easily.

Keep in mind that Livonia isn't what it was in OTL. The crusading forces are considerably smaller than in OTL.

And I'm sure the Danes and the Teutonic order won't let Novgorod keep their new territories without trying to get them back.

That's for sure, you're right.

But it's good that this TL is back!

Thanks.

The Livonian Brothers retreat all the way to Prussia after being forced across the Daugava... what is the status of Courland?

Unconquered Baltic tribes. Curonians, Semigalians, etc.

great timeline. subscribed :)

Thanks.

Part 2 of the chapter will be up soon. We'll be talking South Eastern Europe.
 
XIII



Part II


Caenophrurion and Bisanthi fell to the Nicaeans in the spring of 1244 and the Greek army advances towards Constantinople, laying siege on the great city in April. The Latin Emperor, Baldwin II, having spent most of his life in Western Europe, begging for help from the Catholic monarchs, had fled Constantinople just before Theodore Laskaris, the future Theodore II, son of the Nicaean Emperor John III Doukas Vatatzes, arrived under the walls of Constantinople. Fleeing north, through Bulgaria, he convinced the Bulgarian regency not to intervene in the conflict against the Greeks and to allow any possible relief force from Western Europe to pass through Bulgaria. Baldwin arrived in Kronstatd where he asked Konrad von Thuringen, the Teutonic Grandmaster for help. Because of his religious fervor, Konrad initially planned to help the Latin Emperor, but was forced to abandon this idea after the intervention of the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II, whose friendship and diplomatic ties with John III Doukas Vatatzes (John III was married with one of Frederick II’s daughters) prevented any support from the Holy Roman Empire (whom Konrad had pledged his loyalty to) for the Latin Empire.

Failing to win support in Kronstadt Baldwin continued his trip to Hungary, but his plea was also refused by the Hungarian king, who was in no position to help the Latin Emperor even if he wanted to, his kingdom still recovering from the Mongol Invasion. Without any sign of willingness to help him from the Catholic rulers, Baldwin eventually took refuge in France, endlessly seeking aid for his return in Greece. Back in Constantinople the siege raged on, the strong Latin garrison successfully holding off the Nicaeans for the remainder of 1244.
 
Keep in mind that Livonia isn't what it was in OTL. The crusading forces are considerably smaller than in OTL.
Actually, what I meant was the ease with which Nevskij overthrew the Republic and established himself as an absolute, hereditary monarch. I'd agree that after such a succesful campaign, he'd be in a stronger position, but the way I'd see it going is that he'll still be checked by the big families and the veches, and if he went about butchering the leading families, he'd face a rebellion. He might impose his will, but he'd destroy the structure Novgorod was built from, and the prinicpality would probably break apart. So, what I'd see is a strong Nevskij, who may even impose his heir on Novgorod, but thereafter again a strengthening of the Republican elements, with the Nevskij dynasty becoming more or less titular rulers.
 

ingemann

Banned
Hmmm... I'm not sure that the Novgorodian Republic could have been pushed over so easily. And I'm sure the Danes and the Teutonic order won't let Novgorod keep their new territories without trying to get them back.
But it's good that this TL is back!

I agree with this point, what is sometimes not obvious is that Sweden or even Denmark and North Germany is closer to the Baltic states than Norvograd... at least in travel time. So the Norvograds Baltic provinces would be quite open to reconquest.

But it do bring some point up, some time ago I read up on the Danish conquest of Estonia and there was a few interesting points.
One was why the Danish king would want it back. The bishop of Estonia was a unique position, because instead of the pope reserving the right to choose bishops, the bishop of Estonia was the only bishop in the Catholic world which was choosen by the secular autorities (in this case the Danish king). it made the position very valuable, as it was a way for the Danish king to get someone loyal to him into ecclerical hierachy and de facto gave the Danish king control over the tithe raise in Estonia.

The other two points are demographic. When Estonia was conquered around 130 noble families was estabished, of those around 80 was Westphalian Saxons, 30 Danish and the rest Estonian. The use of the many Westphalians was a attempt by the Danish crown to establish a nobility with few loyalties to the Danish nobility. The result was that Estonia became dominated by a Baltic Germans as it southern neighbours rather Scandinavian upper class as in Finland. The Danish king was only able to do so, because the crown (vs the nobles) was very strong at the point of the conquest. Here most of these families has likely been killed or changed sides (and converted). As such a Danish reconquest will mean that a new nobility will have to be established. As the crown is weaker versus the Danish nobility at this point, it's given that they will insist that the new Estonian nobility are selected among them. This will push Estonia toward a more Finland-like structure with a ruling Scandinavian elite and Scandinavian minority (more on that later).

It also raise the question how much will the Danish nobility conquer, the Livonian knights are more or less broken and the survivours are in Prussia, where they can be used better in war against the Baltic tribes there. I would say that a Danish reconquest will likely include Livonia and Zemgale, while the Prussians may conquer Courland and likely western Samogitia (creating a impressive bigger Prussia).

It also raise another question settlement in the Baltic states. Historic the German settlers in Prussia are best known, as they became a majority, through the Baltic Germans are not unknown either through they only was a minority of the population (5-10% at their highest). But there also a third minority the moribund Estonian Swedes. This later group is closely related to the Finland Swedes, and much as their nothern neignbours they began their migration over the Baltic in this periode. Both groups was fishers and coastal farmers, but where they differ is that the Finland Swedes also ended up as the upper class in Finland (because the Swedes used mostly Swedish noble families as they established a Finnish nobility). Both groups moved into depopulated areas after the crusades. Here with the greater warfare and we will likely see greater depopulation, enable the Estonian(/Baltic) Swedes to make greater gain. Historical they lived on the northern coastline and the western islands, through they never came in majority on Saaremaa/Ösel only on Hilumaa/Dagö (at least until Catherina the great deported this group to Ukraine). Here they may end up a clear majority on both islands and on the nearby coastline (where they survived as viable community until WWII). While they may on northern coastline duplicate the Finland Swedes historical dominance of the southern Finnish coastline. The closely linguistic related Danish nobility will likely favour this group over the Estonians as the German nobles favoured the Baltic Germans over the natives. In this manner favouring means to use them as middlemen and management, which will make the local Scandinavian dialect whether Danish or Swedish (in 1300 they as related as English and American English) the prestige language as Swedish were in Finland.
 
Actually, what I meant was the ease with which Nevskij overthrew the Republic and established himself as an absolute, hereditary monarch. I'd agree that after such a succesful campaign, he'd be in a stronger position, but the way I'd see it going is that he'll still be checked by the big families and the veches, and if he went about butchering the leading families, he'd face a rebellion. He might impose his will, but he'd destroy the structure Novgorod was built from, and the prinicpality would probably break apart. So, what I'd see is a strong Nevskij, who may even impose his heir on Novgorod, but thereafter again a strengthening of the Republican elements, with the Nevskij dynasty becoming more or less titular rulers.

I think I wasn't clear enough in my update. The thing is I didn't wanted to say that Nevsky immediately imposed himself as an absolute ruler. I intend to ignore Russia and focus on other regions for a while and what I tried to do was to state Nevsky's intentions for the following years, maybe even decades. You are right, he wouldn't be able to do all this over night, but that's not what I was trying to say in the update.

I agree with this point, what is sometimes not obvious is that Sweden or even Denmark and North Germany is closer to the Baltic states than Norvograd... at least in travel time. So the Norvograds Baltic provinces would be quite open to reconquest.

But it do bring some point up, some time ago I read up on the Danish conquest of Estonia and there was a few interesting points.
One was why the Danish king would want it back. The bishop of Estonia was a unique position, because instead of the pope reserving the right to choose bishops, the bishop of Estonia was the only bishop in the Catholic world which was choosen by the secular autorities (in this case the Danish king). it made the position very valuable, as it was a way for the Danish king to get someone loyal to him into ecclerical hierachy and de facto gave the Danish king control over the tithe raise in Estonia.

The other two points are demographic. When Estonia was conquered around 130 noble families was estabished, of those around 80 was Westphalian Saxons, 30 Danish and the rest Estonian. The use of the many Westphalians was a attempt by the Danish crown to establish a nobility with few loyalties to the Danish nobility. The result was that Estonia became dominated by a Baltic Germans as it southern neighbours rather Scandinavian upper class as in Finland. The Danish king was only able to do so, because the crown (vs the nobles) was very strong at the point of the conquest. Here most of these families has likely been killed or changed sides (and converted). As such a Danish reconquest will mean that a new nobility will have to be established. As the crown is weaker versus the Danish nobility at this point, it's given that they will insist that the new Estonian nobility are selected among them. This will push Estonia toward a more Finland-like structure with a ruling Scandinavian elite and Scandinavian minority (more on that later).

It also raise the question how much will the Danish nobility conquer, the Livonian knights are more or less broken and the survivours are in Prussia, where they can be used better in war against the Baltic tribes there. I would say that a Danish reconquest will likely include Livonia and Zemgale, while the Prussians may conquer Courland and likely western Samogitia (creating a impressive bigger Prussia).

It also raise another question settlement in the Baltic states. Historic the German settlers in Prussia are best known, as they became a majority, through the Baltic Germans are not unknown either through they only was a minority of the population (5-10% at their highest). But there also a third minority the moribund Estonian Swedes. This later group is closely related to the Finland Swedes, and much as their nothern neignbours they began their migration over the Baltic in this periode. Both groups was fishers and coastal farmers, but where they differ is that the Finland Swedes also ended up as the upper class in Finland (because the Swedes used mostly Swedish noble families as they established a Finnish nobility). Both groups moved into depopulated areas after the crusades. Here with the greater warfare and we will likely see greater depopulation, enable the Estonian(/Baltic) Swedes to make greater gain. Historical they lived on the northern coastline and the western islands, through they never came in majority on Saaremaa/Ösel only on Hilumaa/Dagö (at least until Catherina the great deported this group to Ukraine). Here they may end up a clear majority on both islands and on the nearby coastline (where they survived as viable community until WWII). While they may on northern coastline duplicate the Finland Swedes historical dominance of the southern Finnish coastline. The closely linguistic related Danish nobility will likely favour this group over the Estonians as the German nobles favoured the Baltic Germans over the natives. In this manner favouring means to use them as middlemen and management, which will make the local Scandinavian dialect whether Danish or Swedish (in 1300 they as related as English and American English) the prestige language as Swedish were in Finland.

I'll keep this in mind, thanks for the very detailed post. Writing this timeline would be a nightmare without feedback like this.

hell yeah, it's back! :D

Hehe, thanks. It's good to be back.
 
It's alive!

Unrelated thought: it would be hilarious if Nicaea ended up conquering Anatolia (and possibly also the Armenian Plateau), but not holding much outside of Thrace in the Balkans. Not only would they resemble modern Turkey, but Nicaean Anatolia was pretty much what the Ottomans started out in, making it all the more ironic. :D
 
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