Trajectory of medieval weapons

Yun-shuno

Banned
This isn't a thread asking what if no gunpowder or some such. But simply a question as to where European medieval weapons were going from say ten 10th century AD until the 14th century and beyond(if we want to play ASB). Had guns for whatever reason not been introduced or not developed say for whatever reason the Chinese never develop them or it is delayed perhaps by plague or dynastic civil war and so the Muslims never get them.

Where would a European long sword have evolved towards had it not been made obsolete? Or a longbow for that matter.

Was their limit as to how far these melee weapons could advance or could they keep getting better?
 
Maximum draw weight of longbows is approx 180lbs, remember it's an individual's strength and training that counts. Arbelasts can easily be 10x that and still relatively portable-ish. Quite slow loading compared to a longbow. As to gunpowder, just a question of time as it's quite feasible that it was 'discovered' several times over. After all the were plenty alchemists messing about with the elements....

Longs words etc, have a look on the various forums out there. I do know several people who make swords and it's a very complex topic. Basically forget YouTube videos showing katana beating longs word, it's far far more complex than that and is comparing apples with cheese.
 
With the rise of plate armor, traditional swords were transitioning from slashing to stabbing weapons. Of course there is a limit on armor weight around the 16th century or so.
Axes and hammers were always decent against armor, but organized warfare preferred pikes and halberds. The problem with pikes vs gunpowder is that pikes required strong men.
Crossbows were getting too powerful to be effective, they went from draw strength, to slower leg-draws, to even slower windups; something which was a deadly weakness against cavalry. Of course they needed to be powerful against platemail. The same goes for bows, only so much draw strength and strong arms available until it was ineffective against platemail.
Depending on the kingdom, cavalry still played a key role. Cavalry was needed to turn victories into decisive victories since infantry can't chase down routing enemies and as the Hussars showed, are still deadly. With more armor available and no gunpowder you'd see a return to the Greek style of warfare that emphasized mass, strength, and formation combat.
 
on Crossbows, I'm guessing that, given continued military engineering research, they'll be contineously refined and moved towards a happy medium where they're strong enough to punch through whatever armor the opponent have, but still light enough and fast enough to be viable outside battlement defense, where you can get squires to load for those with strong accuracy

And that would actually be the most important part, that given no gunpowder, Cannons wouldn't be a thing, which in turn means that classic medieval castle fortifications would be much stronger, so you'd probably have a lot less Army meets Army and a lot more Sieges (and counter sieges), which would slow the speed of which wars come to an conclusion.
 

longsword14

Banned
on Crossbows, I'm guessing that, given continued military engineering research, they'll be contineously refined and moved towards a happy medium where they're strong enough to punch through whatever armor the opponent have, but still light enough and fast enough to be viable outside battlement defense, where you can get squires to load for those with strong accuracy

And that would actually be the most important part, that given no gunpowder, Cannons wouldn't be a thing, which in turn means that classic medieval castle fortifications would be much stronger, so you'd probably have a lot less Army meets Army and a lot more Sieges (and counter sieges), which would slow the speed of which wars come to an conclusion.
Crossbows cannot be improved all that much though, at least not without having steel monstrosities that require mechanical devices to draw the string back. Such a device would be extremely costly and would not be even close to being as effective as muskets. Perhaps some new-fangled automatic crossbow that would be capable of storing energy in steel springs and have some decent punching power? All designs I have considered become more and more complicated as you try to improve the basic design.
 
What about the repeating crossbow? The Chinese used them in war and while initially weak, they improved the power. Besides that, there were giant crossbows used as siege weapons and tiny crossbows are made today so there is great variation in size. Also, thermal warfare was around before gunpowder, so if the secret of making Greek Fire got out, maybe they could make portable flame throwers.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Weren't Chinese repeating crossbows often poisoned? If the armies of Europe are having issues with strong enough missile weapons, they might look to poison so a minor wound is still fatal.
 

longsword14

Banned
Weren't Chinese repeating crossbows often poisoned? If the armies of Europe are having issues with strong enough missile weapons, they might look to poison so a minor wound is still fatal.
Too short a range in infantry role. I did see a picture in which a very large (like a ballista) repeating crossbow was on a ship. With the problem of bulk out of the way this would be an ideal arrangement.
 
also other types of weapons might get developed, some involving greek fire maybe. a manportable greek fire thrower is quite feasible.
it sure would spook infantry and cavalry alike. or greek fire hand grenades (which were developed otl, but not in widespread use)
 
I don't have much time but I figured I'd throw a quick blurb really quick.

You would likely see an adaption of the 16-17th century tactics for crossbows. Something along the line of the "three line" musket formation where you have one line fire while the others reload could come out of it and it would help lower the time of opening where no one is firing. Even with the crank if the man was trained he would be able to do it crouching/on one leg if need be. It would work pretty well with "pike and shot" formations because you still have a decent firing powering with protection against Calvary at the same time.

Are cannons excluded from this? For ship combat and siege ware, you did have some cannons even during the 14th century.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
I don't have much time but I figured I'd throw a quick blurb really quick.

You would likely see an adaption of the 16-17th century tactics for crossbows. Something along the line of the "three line" musket formation where you have one line fire while the others reload could come out of it and it would help lower the time of opening where no one is firing. Even with the crank if the man was trained he would be able to do it crouching/on one leg if need be. It would work pretty well with "pike and shot" formations because you still have a decent firing powering with protection against Calvary at the same time.

Are cannons excluded from this? For ship combat and siege ware, you did have some cannons even during the 14th century.
Cannons included no gunpowder.
 
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