Towards a New Direction: America in the Second World War

Hyperion

Banned
I'm going to have to agree on the Japan issue needing to be dealt with.

If Japan doesn't declare war on the US as in OTL, it is most likely not going to declare war on the European colonies, or Australia and New Zealand.

The benefits of this are noticeable. Force Z, the Prince of Wales and Repulse, may not be sent to Singapore of Japan is not showing signs of aggression. The possibilities of this are numerous. Suppose one or both of these ships is available to be used to intercept the German squadron at Brest? One or both of the German battleships are sunk. Huge weight lifted off the Royal Navy, especially with the arctic convoys.

Further on, you don't have the carriers HMS Formidable and HMS Indomitable deployed to the Indian ocean along with Warspite and the light carrier Hermes. These carriers could be of use in the Med. Some of their supporting cruisers and destroyers and auxiliary ships could also be of use.

Big issue on the ground which could have a significant impact on the North African campaign. Once hostilities broke out with Japan, the British army sent a division from Egypt to Singapore as reinforcements, but it arrived too late to be of much use, and did nothing more than add prisoners to Japanese POW camps. Australia also in early 1942 pulled out two of their three divisions fighting in North Africa. With no threat to India, it is also possible that a couple of Indian Army divisions that where used against Japan might be deployed to North Africa, and later Italy or maybe even France.

If pressure isn't put on the Dutch East Indies, perhaps the Dutch government in exile could raise some forces to go to Europe later on to reclaim the homeland.

Not to mention the sheer number of resources lost due to Japanese bombings and occupation. A large number of merchant ships where also lost in OTL which may be available in this scenario, which could improve British and other allied logistics considerably.
 
Calm Down Bill...


Historico,

I was merely echoing what many in this thread had already said; the issues of Japan must be dealt with before the timeline can commence.

... it's not like TNF is trying to ignore the Japanese issue he just said he needs to research it further to see how he can fit into what he had planned for his timeline.

Japan isn't just another piece of the puzzle. It's the centerpiece, the keystone. Japan's role cannot be tackled later because Japan's actions effect the US so directly while also effecting the other anti-fascist European powers.

The confrontation between the US and Japan had been growing throughout the 1930s and by 1941 both sides had reached a point where there was no longer any room for compromise. Either Japan would have to back down or the US would have to back down, there were no more choices left.

Just who backs down in this confrontation and how they back down will effect this timeline in the most fundamental manner possible. Attempting to write this timeline without first working out why Japan didn't trigger a war with the US before Germany did on 7 July 1942 is akin to writing a story before you know the plot, the ending, or even the protagonists.


Bill
 
Historico,

I was merely echoing what many in this thread had already said; the issues of Japan must be dealt with before the timeline can commence.



Japan isn't just another piece of the puzzle. It's the centerpiece, the keystone. Japan's role cannot be tackled later because Japan's actions effect the US so directly while also effecting the other anti-fascist European powers.

The confrontation between the US and Japan had been growing throughout the 1930s and by 1941 both sides had reached a point where there was no longer any room for compromise. Either Japan would have to back down or the US would have to back down, there were no more choices left.

Just who backs down in this confrontation and how they back down will effect this timeline in the most fundamental manner possible. Attempting to write this timeline without first working out why Japan didn't trigger a war with the US before Germany did on 7 July 1942 is akin to writing a story before you know the plot, the ending, or even the protagonists.


Bill
I'm rather afraid this is true.

If Japan wants oil and iron the minimum is they have to pull out of Indochina and agree to talks on withdrawing from China.

If they do pull out of Indochina, they're not going to be able to attack south... I can't see the military allowing this.
 
I'm going to echo Bill's thoughts. If Japan doesn't get sorted, and quickly, this timeline will fall on its face. After the excellence of the previous part of the timeline, it would be a shame for this one to fail to live up to its promise.
 
Because of his own predispositions against British imperialism, however, it would take the prodding of his Chief of Staff, former Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, to loan quite a bit more to that nation than he initially planned, unlike the Soviets, whom Hopkins was quite fond of for their own anti-imperialist stance.
Not sure who Hopkins is, But OTL Lend Lease was passed in 1940 to lend to Britian, it was expanded to the Free French,
Then in 1941 after Barbarossa it was expanded to the Soviets. However, FDR had to spend a lot of Political Capital to get Congress to approve giving Money to the Commies.
?Does Hopkins have this level of Political Pull.?
Also, European imperialism was obviously on its last legs after WWII
Obvious to 20-20 Hindsight. Not so Obvious to people in the Immediate post war years.
If Japan holds off for a few months, America and Germany will come to blows, and then the pressure on Japan will be reduced.
?Why??? Hitler had ordered the German Military to handle the US with extreme Caution. IIRC the NY times had a special Sunday feature on the US pushing the boundaries in the undeclared Atlantic war scheduled for Sunday 14th.
I can't see America provoking Japan into a fight while it's attacking Japan, and Japan... okay, things are trickier. But there were some efforts to come to a compromise in 1941 that did not entail leaving China.
?Do You mean attacking Germany?
The US imposed the oil Embargo in 1940 over Japan's occupation of Indo China. If the US drops the Embargo the Japanese will see this as the US backing Down.
Problem is Most of the Rest of the World will see it the same way, Especially China, Indo-China, & the Dutch in Indonesia.
including the nationalization of the railroads and natural resources, as well as armaments
Pre WW2 most of the US armaments where made in US Military Foundries, [Guns & Artillery] or US Naval Shipyards. So Unless you are planning to Nationalize General Motors, [Tanks] or Boeing and Cord Airplane plants, .....................................:eek::eek:
 
An idea with regard to Japan.

Those of you familiar with the AH movie, 2009: Lost Memories should recognize its own POD, the avoidance of the assassination of Prime Minister Ito Hirobumi by a Korean nationalist, thus slowing the colonization process in Korea and moving towards more positive relations between the United States and Japan as a result. Could this be at all a sensible, or permissible POD for my trying to fix the Japan problem, in this instance?

I figure that I will need an early POD to avoid the problem, but will this one be workable, or...? If not, I'm open to suggestions. If this seems like it will work, then I'll press ahead with it in a history-book update detailing American and Japanese relations in a future update.

Thanks.
 
Those of you familiar with the AH movie, 2009: Lost Memories should recognize its own POD, the avoidance of the assassination of Prime Minister Ito Hirobumi by a Korean nationalist, thus slowing the colonization process in Korea and moving towards more positive relations between the United States and Japan as a result. Could this be at all a sensible, or permissible POD for my trying to fix the Japan problem, in this instance?


TNF,

The US doesn't give two hoots about Korea. Hell, it helped negotiate the treaty that guaranteed Japanese possession of Korea in 1905.

What is Japan's role in Manchuria and China during your timeline? Does Manchukuo exist? Are the Japanese colonizing it? Is Japan involved in a war with China? Did something akin to the Marco Polo Bridge incident happen? Or the Rape of Nanking? As Japan been threatening European citizens possessions in China since the early 30s? How about American citizens? Was the Panay attacked? Did Japan browbeat Vichy France into allowing the occupation of French Indochina? Has Japan been browbeating the exiled governments of other European nations and their Far Eastern representative?

As you can see, tossing out the idea that Japan is relatively kinder to Korea doesn't really answer a thing.


Bill
 
TNF,

The US doesn't give two hoots about Korea. Hell, it helped negotiate the treaty that guaranteed Japanese possession of Korea in 1905.

What is Japan's role in Manchuria and China during your timeline? Does Manchukuo exist? Are the Japanese colonizing it? Is Japan involved in a war with China? Did something akin to the Marco Polo Bridge incident happen? Or the Rape of Nanking? As Japan been threatening European citizens possessions in China since the early 30s? How about American citizens? Was the Panay attacked? Did Japan browbeat Vichy France into allowing the occupation of French Indochina? Has Japan been browbeating the exiled governments of other European nations and their Far Eastern representative?

As you can see, tossing out the idea that Japan is relatively kinder to Korea doesn't really answer a thing.


Bill

Alright. I think I'm going to do an extensive POD post explaining a myriad of changes in Japanese and U.S. relations, come next post, then. Sorry for all of the confusion everyone, and thanks for helping me set the record straight. :eek:
 
After protracted relations of "living and let live" in the Pacific for the latter half of the 19th Century between the United States and Japan, tensions were beginning to rise as both powers competed for land in the Pacific, as shown by Theodore Roosevelt's ending of the Russo-Japanese war through negotiations in 1905.

By the time of the Taft Presidency, however, things were beginning to change between the United States and Japan. The ascension of Prime Minister Ito Hirobumi and the subsequent attempt on his life in 1909, began changing the way that the Japanese would view the United States in the Pacific.

In 1909, while visiting Harbin, Manchuria, shots were fired at Prime Minister Hirobumi by a crazed independence activist, who, missing his target, would proceed to be gunned down by Hitobumi's guard in tow. Hitobumi, realizing the potential for such political violence in the name of independence could make or break plans the Japanese had for Asia, began to adopt a new approach to his policy initiatives. He moved quickly to reorganize the Japanese Empire to grant more autonomy to its provinces to prevent further moves towards independence, especially in a violent fashion.

Hitobumi, changed profoundly by the attempt on his life, would move towards a new justification for Japanese imperialism in East Asia: the ultimate goal of any future moves, he said, would be the unification of all of East Asia in order to prevent further colonisation by European powers, a sort of Asian 'Monroe Doctrine', but with an imperialist bent. Hitobumi would then begin a series of diplomatic talks with both the Taft administration and Wilson administrations in moving towards a negotiated peace in the Pacific between the two leading powers of the era.

He was awarded in the midst of the Wilson administration, with the anti-Imperialist Wilson working to effectively undermine colonial powers in the Pacific in conjunction with Hitobumi. Thus, the Treaty of Seattle was signed in November of 1915, shortly before Wilson's re-election bid began in the United States. On the campaign trail, Wilson would celebrate the Treaty as a measure of "peace in the Pacific", and flaunt his progressive credentials in opposition to the colonialism of the British, French, and Germans. While it remained a footnote on the campaign trail, Wilson would win re-election by a modest margin anyway.

After the Wilson administration, Japanese and American relations remained relatively stable, in part because of the isolationist tendencies of the Republican Presidencies of the Roaring Twenties. While the American public began to revile in disgust at some actions taken by the Japanese in Manchuria and China at large in the late twenties and early thirties, the White House, regardless of party, and the government at-large, did its best to avoid offense to the Japanese, citing the Treaty of Seattle, despite reservations from both Herbert Hoover and Franklin Roosevelt.

Shortly before the Second World War, the Roosevelt administration would do a bit of public feuding with the Japanese, enacting embargoes on natural resources that forced the Japanese to search for them elsewhere, namely, the Chinese mainland. Roosevelt was determined, unlike his Democratic forebearer, Woodrow Wilson, to make sure that imperialism in the Pacific, be it "Yellow or White" not be permitted. Before his last days in office, it was rumored Roosevelt was actually considering further embargoes on the nation, including a steel embargo, but declined to do so with the incoming Hopkins administration.

The Hopkins Administration, in conjunction with the relatively moderate Prime Minister of Japan, would institute talks in early 1941 to rebuke these embargoes in exchange for a ceasation of hostilities between the Empire and the empires of the west, but in earnest, these talks would only lead to an end to embargoes and a free hand for Japan in fighting western imperialism. Hopkins, however, would stress to the Japanese the vision of the former Prime Minister Hitobumi, and would at the conference, force an amendment to the soon to be passed Treaty of Manila conceding stronger self-governance rights for Imperial citizens in the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere...

- United as One: A History of the United States, a high-school history textbook published by Hughes-Marshall Co., 2003
 
So the POD is back in 1909, Instead of the thirties wow, wasn't expecting one so far back, I though you were going to call it a day and just retcon Pearl Harbor. Im intersted to see where your taking the Co-Prosperity sphere with this timeline. Keep it comming TNF
 
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