Torpedo Bombers vs. The Royal Navy?

The attack on Pearl was accomplished not with just torpedo planes but also level and dive bombers. The solution found by the Japanese to minimize the depth of torpedo drop was simple. But did the Japanese follow the British method?
 

Markus

Banned
Did the american exercises include the use of torpedo-bombers? IIRC the fleet problem in question involved air strikes flown from Lexington and Saratoga primarily against ground targets (Wheeler Field, Schofield Barracks, etc...), with a few straffing runs against Ford Island and ships at anchor there. It did demonstrate that a carrier-based air assault on Pearl was possible, but didn't simulate the actual circumstances of the Japanese attack, such as the use of torpedo-bombers. The problems with a torpedo-bomber attack on Pearl Harbour (shallow water and such) would not actually be solved until Taranto, although if pressed a solution might have been possible earlier.

The USN was aware of the possibility of a torpedo attack. They considered laying anti-torpedo nets but did not do it in the end as hte nets were viewed as inconvenient and the danger of a surprise attack was rated very low.
 

Redbeard

Banned
The British never had their fleet concentrated at Scapa Flow or any other base in WWII like the Grand Fleet in WWI. Rarely more than a couple of capital ships were present there at any one time. Already that makes a "one strike strategy" problematic, even if the dilemma of shifting focus to naval strike without weakening the Luftwaffe's Army support role has been solved.

I doubt if taking out most of the WWII Home Fleet would bring the British to the negotiating table. If before May 40 the allied superiority in numbers would simply be way too big as the French fleet is still in the game (and the Italians not). From June 40 to June 41 presence elsewhere (mainly the Med. - perhaps avoiding costly follies like the intervention in Greece) can be cut temporaily until new ships are available (plenty fitting out) and I'm sure FDR could be talked into lend-leasing more than the OTL 50 destroyers - no matter how that pisses off Adm. King. From June 41 Murmansk convoys might be cancelled but they at that time had mainly symbolic importance. After December 41 the Yanks are there - no need for big worries any longer...

But a markedly increased capacity for naval strike of the Luftwaffe by 1940 might be what is needed to bring Sea Lion anywhere near a glimpse of plausability. OTOH I doubt if that capacity could be created without the British finding out and reacting, and/or the Heer bogging down in France due to absent Lufwaffe support.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
Not really on the topic, and not really the kind of problems a POD or two cant handle.

First, a POD or two with perfect hindsight and filled with inept Brits maybe can handle that.
OTL the Germans already achieved very much if you take into consideration the limited amount of time & resources they had to build up a military apparatus.

Secondly, how was my reply off topic?
Strangely enough there were three people replying after me (Astrodragon, DCC and Tyr) with a reply which implied pretty much the same as mine;
the Germans only had limited resources to spend and if they spend more on your idea's, they've got less to spend on the things which actually made them win the war in the West in '40 amongst others.

Were theirs all off topic too?

IMHO it's kind of childish and ill-mannered to pretend a reply is off-topic if you don't like it because it doens't fit your idea.
 
First, a POD or two with perfect hindsight and filled with inept Brits maybe can handle that.
OTL the Germans already achieved very much if you take into consideration the limited amount of time & resources they had to build up a military apparatus.

Secondly, how was my reply off topic?
Strangely enough there were three people replying after me (Astrodragon, DCC and Tyr) with a reply which implied pretty much the same as mine;
the Germans only had limited resources to spend and if they spend more on your idea's, they've got less to spend on the things which actually made them win the war in the West in '40 amongst others.

Were theirs all off topic too?

IMHO it's kind of childish and ill-mannered to pretend a reply is off-topic if you don't like it because it doens't fit your idea.

The topic is the effect the strategy would have on the Royal Navy. I actually intended this to be for an ATL, but you are the best example how people like to discuss the form of the topic rather then the content. I refrained from talking about the ATL, cause nobody would talk about the question, but rather discuss the ATL (which isnt cristalised in the form I would like it to be). And giving a few gudelines and simple ideas isnt enough for people to keep on the subject.

IMHO it`s kind of childish that you got offended this easily. And the way you wrote this reply is ill-mannered.
 
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Well the only way to get the RN to be obliged to come out and fight the Luftwaffe would be for the Luftwaffe to continue to attack the airfields during the Battle of Britain and secure air dominance over SE England. Then have the Germans attempt their landings which most likely fail but the RN takes a pounding so much so that the British sue for peace.
 
Well the only way to get the RN to be obliged to come out and fight the Luftwaffe would be for the Luftwaffe to continue to attack the airfields during the Battle of Britain and secure air dominance over SE England. Then have the Germans attempt their landings which most likely fail but the RN takes a pounding so much so that the British sue for peace.

**** sigh ****
 
Well the only way to get the RN to be obliged to come out and fight the Luftwaffe would be for the Luftwaffe to continue to attack the airfields during the Battle of Britain and secure air dominance over SE England. Then have the Germans attempt their landings which most likely fail but the RN takes a pounding so much so that the British sue for peace.

Okay. Lets go.

The Royal Navy in this case is sortieing in full force against the unspeakable sea mammal. This means about four battleships and battlecruisers, a carrier or two, and assorted (numerous) escorts. This task force's location is unknown beyond rough generalizations to the Germans until they enter the channel, at which point it is to late, because the invasion convoys are doomed. They probably lack the range to make an intercept far out, anyways. The british fleet is covered by CAPs flown from the carriers and by fighters from groups 11 and 12 (and 13 when it sorties from Scapa Flow). The germans are going to be attacking pretty much without fighter cover, since the 109s dont have the range for combat operations until the home fleet is almost on top of the kriegsmarine. The intercepts have to be made against a moving fleet in the open seas, with 100% effectivness (even a few destroyers will be enough to defeat the landings).

Pray tell, what chance do you give the german torpedo-bombers under these circumstances?
 
Had the Luftwaffe taken an interest in torpedo technology at an earlier date, and diverted twin-engine bombers to carry the new torpedo, while the RN still stuck to it's original timeline in improving AA defenses and naval fighter effectiveness, it is conceivable that RN combat ships could be sunk if they exposed themselves to attack. The Kriegsmarine performed early war aerial torpedo development and the Luftwaffe couldn't care less until Italian successes became evident. Still, useage was mostly limited to attacks on merchant shipping, ie the Murmansk run, attacked from Norway. Moderate success was achieved until Wildcat fighters were introduced. I cannot imagine a scenario where Luftwaffe torpedo bombers could have wild success against the RN combat ships except in a wargame simulator where the person regulating the British side is tired and wants to go to bed real soon. Or, as in my case, middle grandbaby wants the computer now.
 
Okay. Lets go.

The Royal Navy in this case is sortieing in full force against the unspeakable sea mammal. This means about four battleships and battlecruisers, a carrier or two, and assorted (numerous) escorts. This task force's location is unknown beyond rough generalizations to the Germans until they enter the channel, at which point it is to late, because the invasion convoys are doomed. They probably lack the range to make an intercept far out, anyways. The british fleet is covered by CAPs flown from the carriers and by fighters from groups 11 and 12 (and 13 when it sorties from Scapa Flow). The germans are going to be attacking pretty much without fighter cover, since the 109s dont have the range for combat operations until the home fleet is almost on top of the kriegsmarine. The intercepts have to be made against a moving fleet in the open seas, with 100% effectivness (even a few destroyers will be enough to defeat the landings).

Pray tell, what chance do you give the german torpedo-bombers under these circumstances?

I guess I stand corrected:eek:
 
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