top two means to achieve a better-off Argentina

Could you people from south America name some good books to read on south American History . As a citizen of the US I hate to say it I only read English .
Well, if you want to know about Brazilian history I would recommend "1808"(which talks about the transfer of the Portuguese court to Rio de Janeiro in that year), "Maldita Guerra" by Francisco Doratioto(which is a good if lenghty history of the War of the Triple Alliance of 1865-1870, the biggest war in South American history) even though I'm not sure if it exists in the US. Also, the ones by Thomas Skidmore explain a lot about Brazil throughout the Twentieth century. On Argentina and other South American countries, though, I cannot truly recommend anything, if only that you read Wikipedia:D I wished I knew more as well.
 
I've been saying before that it was the Latin political culture as much as the new urban, immigrant-descended middle class and the Depression/WWII that ultimately propelled Peron's rise to power in 1945. I stand by all I've had to say, because Argentina faced the unique situation of being a large Latin American country getting a proportionally overwhelming wave of immigration from abroad (even Brazil didn't have such a high percentage of immigrants relative to the total population).

As I told before, the latin political culture plays a role, but it's not as important as the depression and the precedent set by Yrigoyen's rise.
And as you say this overwhelming wave of immigration that Argentina got made her different to other countries in Latin America, and that's precisely what rests so much importance to political culture.
And anyway, your reasoning has a fail. We can say that being part of "A" culture makes the countries part of said culture do "B". But we can't say that if "B" happened it certainly was because of "A".
Its like saying the URSS was authoritarian because the Tzars were also authoritarians.

In the Latin political culture, in Argentina as elsewhere, there's been a conservative, landed elite for the longest time. When the immigrants came over, the landed elite intended for them to stay for only a short time in the country, as opposed to actually settling the land. The elite was therefore exclusionary to the immigrants, and denied them citizenship and voting rights for the longest time. By contrast, in the likes of the US, Canada, or Australia, the elites were much more favourable to the immigrants. The antagonism between the elites and the immigrants was what caused all this political conflict in Argentina, because the immigrants and their descendants wanted a political voice of their own. Even though it's true that it was a liberal democracy prior to 1930, it was limited relative to North America and other anglo democracies. Furthermore, there was no real capitalist elite in Argentina like in the developed world that could guide and finance economic development and was left at the mercy of other countries, like Britain and the US, to do so. For all these reasons, it was the underlying political structure as much as contemporary world events that did Argentina in.

That idea about immigration to Argentina and the role the elite played is not true at all.

First of all, it was in the interests of the elite to populate the country because it was really big and because Chile was eager to expand to expand. You can't fight as much as you want, but if the population of a territory is against you and even worse, is from a neighboring country which can threat you, you are going to loose the territory sooner or later.
That happened with Texas and California, happened with Florida, happened to us with Eastern Misiones, and happened to Chile in Patagonia.
Then you have the education laws and the law if military service. The education laws were enacted more or less in 1880, way before immigrants were predominant. The military service law was enacted in 1900 more or less in order to make the different immigrant group feel as one big group, have them all feel Argentineans. A country which don't want the immigrants to stay won't do this.
And finally, it wasn't a situtation where only immigrants where prevented from having rights. All the people who were not part of the elites suffered the same fate, and all of them fought together to have their rights recognized. The immigrants brought the tradition and the ideas of fighting for their rights instead of staying quite, while the Native population made these immigrants and especially their descendants become more moderate and not perform any Revolution as they pretended.
What I see is that you chain the idea of the settling people in a country with settling them in small farms, typical to anglo-saxon countries. Well, here with did the same in our own way. As most of the countryside was owned by the elites, many small towns were founded, usually of less than 2.500 inhabitants. It was in these towns were immigrants settled, from there they worked in the fields, they worked in the mills, etc.
Look at a map of Cordoba, Entre Rios, Misiones, Corrientes, Buenos Aires, Santa Fe or Tucuman and you will see there are many of this small towns. I can tell this was the way the country was settled because my grandparents settled in a small town in Buenos Aires, and my parents grew up there, where most if not all of the people had something to do with the countryside and their parents or granparents came to the country either because they were hired to work or because they wanted to work in the countryside but were unable to buy some lands.
This kind of settlement is not seen elsewhere in Latin America except in Southern Brasil, which was settled in circumstances very similar to the Argentinean ones.


And in terms of the UCR not splitting up in 1924, I'm not sure that it would have happened realistically (of course, you could fantasize anything), simply because Alvear wanted to get rid of "phantom" employees (not showing up regularly if at all) who were loyal to Yrigoyen in order to clean up the house of corruption - and these pro-Yrigoyen employees didn't like that one bit.

No, no and no. You are confusing things again. Nobody said the UCR never splits. It's split was pretty much inevitable as long as there where two diferent factions with strong leaders, and that's why it happened OTL when Alvear became a leader a short time after he became president, but which wasn't made formal until 1924.
And if Yrigoyen dies in 1926 which is what was proposed earlier, then it would have been two years following your date for split and four following mine. A short period in any case. It's extremely implausible that the Personalistas movement will survive after Yrigoyen's death. It can resurge later, but right after his dead it's nothing. The Personalistas don't have any possible leader or candidates, thanks to Yrigoyen. Who are they going to vote? The Concordancia?:rolleyes:
 
By contrast, in the likes of the US, Canada, or Australia, the elites were much more favourable to the immigrants.

Come again?

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That's not to mention, in New England at least (which is therefore relevant for me), the huge anti-Irish & anti-French Canadian sentiment, to the point where at one time the KKK had its largest membership in Maine.
 
Come again?

IMG0104.jpg


That's not to mention, in New England at least (which is therefore relevant for me), the huge anti-Irish & anti-French Canadian sentiment, to the point where at one time the KKK had its largest membership in Maine.

Also, Argentina had never set an immigration limit as the USA once did.
 
Also, Argentina had never set an immigration limit as the USA once did.

That's actually a big mistake for Argentina. With no limit of entrance of immigrants makes for the Anarchists to enter Argentina freely and setting immigration limit will be make easier to trickle down the economic gains to the poorest immigrants.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Are you sure that in South Africa there hasn't been an equivalent of "para Ingles ver" for the Afrikaners, or in Canada for the French? I see the Spanish in a British Argentina (what you describe as "ordinary Argentines") as the rough equivalent of the Afrikaners and the French Canadians (in that they live alongside British settlers and are in conflict with them).

Quebec's judicial system is french, the South African legal system is mostly dutch civil law. The french feudal aristocracy remained in charge until the 1830s, etc.

In the Latin political culture, in Argentina as elsewhere, there's been a conservative, landed elite for the longest time.
That's true of the US south, of eastern Canada, etc.
 

chubaca

Banned
Immigration limit was not need in empty Argentina, also currenlty Argentina is minus density population that continuous 48 USA. Argentina needed some "argentinians" living and fighting in the frontiers.
 
Immigration limit was not need in empty Argentina, also currently Argentina is minus density population that continuous 48 USA. Argentina needed some "Argentines" living and fighting in the frontiers.

While I agree that Argentina needs more immigration but the problem is the political setup in Argentina that makes higher density population not a good idea for Argentina's economic development. Keep in mind that Argentina has a federal structure but in reality you should know that Argentina's population and economic development was mainly concentrated within Buenos Aires area and the political setup especially the presidential system always favors with the larger provinces especially Buenos Aires. Also, most leaders are came from Buenos Aires area and any attempts to reform the economy and politics that contrary to Buenos Aires interests will be thawed.
 

yofie

Banned
And if Yrigoyen dies in 1926 which is what was proposed earlier, then it would have been two years following your date for split and four following mine. A short period in any case. It's extremely implausible that the Personalistas movement will survive after Yrigoyen's death. It can resurge later, but right after his dead it's nothing. The Personalistas don't have any possible leader or candidates, thanks to Yrigoyen. Who are they going to vote? The Concordancia?:rolleyes:

Do you really not think that Enrique Martinez, who was Yrigoyen's vice-president from 1928 to the coup in 1930 OTL, would be the president in 1928 in this TL? Did Martinez have the same ideas as Yrigoyen, in terms of keeping oil resources in nationalist hands and away from foreign investors?
 
Come again?
That's not to mention, in New England at least (which is therefore relevant for me), the huge anti-Irish & anti-French Canadian sentiment, to the point where at one time the KKK had its largest membership in Maine.

That being said, the US enacted immigration restrictions relatively late. The first anti-immigration legislation was designed to restrict asian immigration to the west coast. The second, the forefather to present American immigration law, came about after WWI in order to keep out "leftists" while promoting a general sense of nativism towards existing immigrants.

As for the KKK, its second emergence came about during this Era. The KKK was less about Southern resistance towards reconstruction, than nativist resentment towards immigrants, blacks, unions, and catholics. Indiana was the state with KKK's largest membership though, and the organization briefly dominated state government.
 
That being said, the US enacted immigration restrictions relatively late. The first anti-immigration legislation was designed to restrict asian immigration to the west coast. The second, the forefather to present American immigration law, came about after WWI in order to keep out "leftists" while promoting a general sense of nativism towards existing immigrants.

As for the KKK, its second emergence came about during this Era. The KKK was less about Southern resistance towards reconstruction, than nativist resentment towards immigrants, blacks, unions, and catholics. Indiana was the state with KKK's largest membership though, and the organization briefly dominated state government.

You forgot Jews. The Klan in all of its incarnations was antisemitic. By the way, wasn't it influential in Connecticut too?
 
You forgot Jews. The Klan in all of its incarnations was antisemitic. By the way, wasn't it influential in Connecticut too?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was influential in CT, too.

@King Gorilla: OK, this might sound like a strange question that is definitely off-topic, but are you related to the King Gorilla on GMInsideNews?
 
@King Gorilla: OK, this might sound like a strange question that is definitely off-topic, but are you related to the King Gorilla on GMInsideNews?

Afraid not, I chose my moniker when I was a freshman in college, and found the Venture Brother's character to be especially hilarious.

Back on topic. As Joseph Solis mentioned, Argentina is in a difficult situation regarding immigration. While its all well and good that Buenos Aires became Argentina's principal city, port, economic center its development at the expense of the rest of Argentina leaves most of the country undeveloped and underutilized. I don't suppose that under Sarmiento, Argentina could create its own version of the homestead act while subsidizing rail lines between Cordoba, Rosario, and Mendoza? Rail depots would be a natural location for future towns and villages while land subsidies would give settlers an additional incentive to cluster around these locations.
 
Afraid not, I chose my moniker when I was a freshman in college, and found the Venture Brother's character to be especially hilarious.

Back on topic. As Joseph Solis mentioned, Argentina is in a difficult situation regarding immigration. While its all well and good that Buenos Aires became Argentina's principal city, port, economic center its development at the expense of the rest of Argentina leaves most of the country undeveloped and underutilized. I don't suppose that under Sarmiento, Argentina could create its own version of the homestead act while subsidizing rail lines between Cordoba, Rosario, and Mendoza? Rail depots would be a natural location for future towns and villages while land subsidies would give settlers an additional incentive to cluster around these locations.

That's because one have to know the situation and history of the country in order to understand why they needed immigrants and why they mainly went near Buenos Aires, but not just to this city but to the Pampas.
For a start, the economy of the Northwest of the country(Jujuy, Salta, Tucuman, Catamarca, La Rioja, Santiago del Estero) was really tied to Potosi needs. If Potosi isn't there to buy their stuff, what are they gonna do? Because most of the land is not good for agriculture or livestock. Only Tucuman and parts of Salta managed to do well because of sugar production. The other parts needed proteccionist measures to avoid being defeated by industrial manufactures. So for the main part of early XIX Century the economy here is stagnant.
On the other side, Cordoba, Buenos Aires, Santa Fe and Entre Rios are thriving. The independence of the country put and end to Spanish management of the economy. This way, meat and leather production grew really fast as Europe demanded these goods. So for the main part of early XIX Century the economy here is doing really well. This is seen as the population of this provinces grew really fast. Also, this provinces had the power and richness to attract new people. That's why immigrants settled there. It's a situation of going where the money is or going where there isn't.
Also why would they settle in say the Northwest, if the land is awful there. Is like settling in the middle of Mojave desert.
Immigrants settled in the good lands(Pampas, Chaco, Mesopotamia). Or if the goverment saw possibilities of development, in harsh areas, like in Rio Negro and Neuquen, or Chubut, or Mendoza, where irrigation works had to be done in order to make the land useful. This is because this lands at least have some rivers. The Northwest lacks any important one(save the Yungas area).
And anyway from where they settled OTL, immigrants tended to settle where the climate was similar to their home or was at least good. This only happens in the Pampas. Menoza is too dry. Chaco, Formosa, Misiones and Corrientes are too hot. Rio Negro and Chubut are dry, windy and cold.

Then for the rail lines, it has no sense in having them go between cities. Before the 20s, most people never left their town or the areaa close to it. Immigrants arrived in Buenos Aires and went to the town they wanted to settle. After that, it's not like if they needed to go elsewhere. They didn't had families and only left if they needed to do some business in a neighboring town or do something important in Buenos Aires.

Now going to yofie's proposition of Enrique Martinez, I have to repeat the same as before. He was another tool of Yrigoyen. He was only elected governor of Cordoba because Yrigoyen's help. He was only chosen as vicepresident because Yrigoyen wanted to. And Yrigoyen never chose him because of his leadership or being a natural manager. He was chosen because Yrigoyen knew that if he said: "Enrique, bring me a coffee", Enrique would say "Yes sir!" and just do it. And would never think that he might ask someone else to give him coffee too. And would give Yrigoyen his coffee with few milk and much sugar, just like he liked:D
 
Now going to yofie's proposition of Enrique Martinez, I have to repeat the same as before. He was another tool of Yrigoyen. He was only elected governor of Cordoba because Yrigoyen's help. He was only chosen as vicepresident because Yrigoyen wanted to. And Yrigoyen never chose him because of his leadership or being a natural manager. He was chosen because Yrigoyen knew that if he said: "Enrique, bring me a coffee", Enrique would say "Yes sir!" and just do it. And would never think that he might ask someone else to give him coffee too. And would give Yrigoyen his coffee with few milk and much sugar, just like he liked:D

In addition of that, Enrique Martinez was not intended to be a vice president. He was just chosen by Yrigoyen as vice president after then vice president-elect Francisco Beiró died before taking office.
 
Immigrants settled in the good lands (Pampas, Chaco, Mesopotamia). Or if the goverment saw possibilities of development, in harsh areas, like in Rio Negro and Neuquen, or Chubut, or Mendoza, where irrigation works had to be done in order to make the land useful. This is because this lands at least have some rivers. The Northwest lacks any important one(save the Yungas area).

Had Sarmiento or Roca thinks that it is in the interest of Argentina to transfer the capital from Buenos Aires City to either in the Pampas area or Rio Negro area and change the political system from Presidential to Parliamentary, I think the economic development will be felt to the Pampas and Rio Negro and the economic and political power of Buenos Aires is somewhat being reduced.
 
Had Sarmiento or Roca thinks that it is in the interest of Argentina to transfer the capital from Buenos Aires City to either in the Pampas area or Rio Negro area and change the political system from Presidential to Parliamentary, I think the economic development will be felt to the Pampas and Rio Negro and the economic and political power of Buenos Aires is somewhat being reduced.

And risk to have another civil war?
How you convince the provinces that it's a good thing?
Because after all to finish the Civil War an equilibrium was needed and had to be kept.

For a start, the area of the Pampas south of the Salado River and north of the Rio Negro river didn't became properly civilized before 1900, before this it was too scarcely populated and was no way a place where to have a goverment.
Then you have the problem of making Buenos Aires too powerful. I mean, Buenos Aires province was powerful even without the city. With the city it was almost impossible to defeat it. The provinces won't allow for Buenos Aires and the surrounding areas to be in the same jurisdiction.

My bet for a better capital? Santa Fe. It is more or less in the middle of the country, has access to the Juramento river, is at a considerable distance from Buenos Aires and is not the economical center of the province(Rosario). Also, by being next to Parana river, the authorities can send orders quickly to Buenos Aires, which a capital in another part of the country would be unable to do.

But something would have to be done with Buenos Aires. And it's going to be difficult. The only possible solution would be to cut the province by the Salado River. Which Buenos Aires won't like and will want many concessions in exchange. This way it could be done, but it would be difficult, and much would depend in how much control Buenos Aires has over the government anyway. Remember that Buenos Aires elite will still have the money and the interests. All they need is to bride the goverment.
 
Or maybe Argentina decides to do a very different approach with its currency board - say, making it more of an orthodox currency board than in OTL. Remember that it was the Argentine Currency Board itself that was one of the big problems with the financial crisis (as well as pegging the peso to the USD - when most of Argentina's markets were in Latin America or Europe, making the CHF more suitable for a currency board peg than the USD). What the Argentine Currency Board should have done was peg the peso (or nuevo austral ;):p) to the Swiss franc (CHF) or a currency basket (consisting of mainly European currencies [probably even shadowing the European Currency Unit, to a degree], plus the Brazilian real and both Mexican, Uruguayan, and Chilean pesos) with an adjustable exchange rate similar to Hong Kong's arrangement with the US dollar and leave it like that. That would make Argentina's currency board arrangement more in line with its trading partners.

A well said, from the start, linking Argentina's currency to the US Dollar was doomed to fail through an unorthodox currency board. Carlos Menem at that time was too obsessed of killing inflation that actually happens in OTL while not thinking its export competitiveness. He privatize almost all state-owned enterprises in just one single shot instead of gradual approach. Also, he never separates the CGT from the Peronist Party structure which are also the causes of the implosion of neoliberalism in Argentina as the CGT wants to maintain job security without thinking that Argentina's labor market needs restructuring through introducing a job flexibility at the same time improving the social security in order to compete with the neighboring countries.

POD could be:

In 1988, Menem never gets the Justicialist Party nomination but instead the pragmatic and social democrat Antonio Cafiero instead was being nominated by the party. Since hyperinflation done by Alfonsin was ongoing but lesser than in OTL (Menem's economic platform at that time scares businesses) and any Radical candidate for the presidency will be defeated by the Peronists.

The series of hyperinflation from late 1989 to early 1990 force Argentina to change course, and the Cafiero, keen to reduce the inflation and kill the possibility of hyperinflation in the future, adopts the neoliberal economic model but more gradual than in OTL. Cafiero and her cabinet doesn't squander it like Menem did. As the West begins coming out of recession in the early 1990s, Argentina's wealth grows. As this happens, the Argentine government does its best to balance wage concerns and economic growth issues such as Argentine Currency Board (an orthodox ones not the OTL ones) decides to peg the peso (or nuevo austral ;):p) to the Swiss franc (CHF) or a currency basket (consisting of mainly European currencies [probably even shadowing the European Currency Unit, to a degree], plus by mid 2000s the Brazilian real and both Mexican, Uruguayan, and Chilean pesos) with an adjustable exchange rate similar to Hong Kong's arrangement with the US dollar.

Without Menem/Cavallo and his policies that they caused, Argentina's economy picks up a big head of steam in the 1990s. Better relations with neighboring Brazil and Chile help gain access to resources. As with Japan and South Korea, the government's extensive involvement with business and focus on export markets allows for growth to be both swift and effective. The financial crisis of 2008-2010 is also helpful, as some Japanese and American investments in Argentina are sold back for peanuts compared to what they had been bought for. In addition, with the stability of more than a decade of strong growth, Argentines start bringing their hard currency back home, which puts a fat stack of money in banks for them to borrow off of.

The 2000s see the Argentine Peso gain value nearly constantly, which hurts Argentine exports but is dramatically helpful to the country's standards of living. Argentina tightens its belt and keeps on going. By now, the country is one of the world's major industrial and agricultural importers and a key link in the world economy.

By 2010, Argentina stands as a first world middleweight, with a $1.125 trillion economy and US$25,000 per capita in par with Korea and Portugal and with only Brazil rivaling it as an economic power in Latin America. What imports Argentina needs, they tend to import from Latin America, thus providing a substantial supply of capital for Chile, Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay, Colombia, Venezuela and Peru. Argentine industrial goods are increasingly common in Europe and North America, and them and the Brazilians practically own the Latin American markets for white goods.

Oh, and at least move the neoliberal policies towards the direction of a German-style social market economy with flexicurity (though encouraging savings could probably work) and comprehensive health care reform, probably taking Costa Rica (or even the modern-day American VA system - I'm not joking) as a model but in a more federal form and by learning from the lessons of Costa Rica's model.
German-style social market economy is well fitted for Argentina instead of trying to copy the Chilean model of privatizing everything. Also, flexicurity is perfectly fit to Argentina's needs with the history of Peronist government-funded health care. In OTL, Menem never reform the inefficient Peron-era health care system, never enact the labor flexibility law because the CGT still controls the Justicialist Party's decision-making that still effects today and instead of breaking the CGT from Justicialist Party's decision making, he spent the entire second term for reckless spending to gather support for his third term (unconstitutional but Menem insisted that he could run on the basis that his first six-year term was not being considered as first-term by the 1994 Revised Constitution) and to defeat his political rival, Eduardo Duhalde but fortunately Menem plans for third term was being defeated by Duhalde though the Congress although Duhalde lose the presidential bid in 1999 elections but two years later, he got the presidency by unexpected circumstances.
 
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Or another latest POD:

Menem or Cavallo decides to fully dollarize Argentina and withdraw the Argentine peso from circulation and replace it with the US Dollar as many Argentines deposits their accounts in Dollars.
 
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