Top Locomotives Never Built
- Thread starter Duke Andrew of Dank
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The 2-6-0Ts were an actual 1945 proposal for an outside cylinder 3ft 8in wheeled Pannier Tank very similar to the 15XX. 200 psi boiler similar to a Dean Goods and kicks out 22,515 lbf of tractive effort. If you have a copy of Locomotives that Never Were by Robin Barnes handy its on page 80.
I don't have a copy. You got any screenshots to show of that and other things?
The designs that I have made up fictionally are as follows (that sentence was poorly worded as the only OTL engine aside from the pacific was the 2-6-0PT).
- A number of 4-6-0s
- A 4-6-4T replacement for the Prairies based on the frame of a County
- A 4-8-0
- A 4-8-2 freight engine
- A 2-10-2 (although TTL this is made very clear that its a proof of concept not a serious consideration)
Then a small handful of diesel shunters
There you go - its his interpretation of it of course. I prefer to call it the 85XX since the 94XX also exists.
All credit goes to Robin Barnes for the wonderful illustration.
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As for the others, I fully intend on making my own "technical drawings" of the fictionalized designs. In the meantime here is the look of the proposed 2-10-2T that was stillborn due to the GWR just using two King Class engines for the job (I believe proposed by Swindon in 1937)
Interesting, that said my own British steam ideas do involve the US a bit more heavily and not just in WWII.
To start, one idea I had for a POD would be for Robinson to get his proposed GCR 2-10-2s built in 1912, after modifications that include the use of Walscherts Valve Gear. While only fourteen are built, they do inspire the GCR to build their own 2-10-2 design from scratch, the LNER classifies these respective classes as S2 and S3 - also worth nothing is that the S2 class were retro-fitted with smoke deflectors and also given names paying homage to American railroads. Soon after the L&YR Hughes 2-10-0 similarly is born thanks to the GCR's inspiration, as are 4-4-2, 4-6-2, and 2-10-2 designs for the Caledonian. This helps to set a precedent for larger steam locomotives on British soil in the years thereafter. Especially where the Big Four and their needs for freight and express passenger engines are concerned.
LMS allows Fowler to nix the Midland's design policies with his designs for a Pacific and a Mikado, respectively working on expresses and heavy freight. This leads to further openness to larger locomotives. Later on, Stanier builds a 9P 4-6-4 for expresses, a 10MT 4-8-4 for freight, and a 9F 2-8-2 for mixed-traffic that uses the same boiler design as the one for the Princess Royal class. In addition to these designs a 6MT class of 2-6-2s are built for use on smaller, shorter trains. Nonetheless, the Black Five and 8F are still prominent and successful designs.
GWR is mostly the same as OTL like you said at least at first. For one thing, I imagined them also building those Collett 2-10-2Ts for use on coal traffic in Wales. However, another idea I pondered if what if Hawksworth were to be allowed to build his County class as Pacifics. To that end, I could see the County class being a sort of mixed-traffic type with the Cathedral Pacifics being for faster express trains. Topping that off I also thought of Hawksworth getting to build his proposed 4-4-0 locomotive, and is also inspired by the Stanier Mikados to build a Mikado to pull Heavy Freights in the place of older 2-8-0 locomotives.
LNER starts off with an argument between Gresley and Edward Thompson over the idea of standardizing the locomotive fleet. Management offers a compromise where Gresley is able to build locomotives in scenarios where he sees fit, but also has to work on standardizing the fleet more. Gresley builds the P2 Mikados and gets to build his I1 fleet of 4-8-2s for the ECML, but he also builds a S4 2-10-2 for use on heavy freights (with WD engines also joining the fold later on). Thompson's designs for B1 4-6-0s, L1 2-6-4Ts, O1 2-8-0s, and K1 Moguls are both built en masse to replace the oldest pre-grouping locomotives, with the remaining ones mostly being the better models like the GER 4-4-0s/4-6-0s and the GCR 9J/LNER J11 0-6-0s. In spire Thompson himself decides to retire after not even two years as CME due to personal reasons. Peppercorn takes over as a result, and he builds the I2 class of Mountains instead of the A2 and is also the one who gets to rebuild all the Gresley Pacifics including Great Northern. He also proposes a W2 Baltic 4-6-4 and a 4-8-4, but neither get off the ground.
The Southern Railway operates Pershing 2-8-0s and a few other war machines, which are augmented by Maunsell's 4-8-0s in the 1920s. Bulleid's first proposal for a Pacific is modified to make it more suitable for mixed traffic and the need to be low maintenance, creating the Walscherts-equipped G1 class of 4-8-0s instead. During the BR days, the Pershings and both classes of 4-8-0s are augmented by USATC types of both the S160 Consolidation type and the S200 Mikadoes. He also gets the chance to build some 4-6-4Ts that are used for shorter-distance trains and use the Battle of Britain class' streamlining. On a further passenger train side, Bulleid also builds both his proposed "Battleship" 2-8-2s and Merchant Navy 4-8-2s. The Merchant Navies, alongside the Gresley/Peppercorn Mountains, prove to set a further precedent for BR later on. The Battleship class in particular becomes famous for its use on the Pines Express over the S&DJR.
BR Standards are where I've been having the most fun with what if designs, in part because of ideas I had for oil woes that stem from the Middle Eastern backlash against Israel, which would eventually lead to the Soviet Bloc ingratiating itself with those Arab nations. As mentioned before, the USATC engines that stay in Britain mostly work on the Southern region, and are placed in the 91XXX numbering range. Meanwhile, the Standard 8 Pacifics get serveral examples built due to these oil woes. The biggest changes however are several new classes. These start off with a Standard Class 5 Atlantic for use on various routes in Scotland, and are a test bed for three-cylinder design under Riddles. Followed by a Standard 8 Tank, which are 2-8-4Ts which were built to standardize the tank engines used on Western Region coal traffic. Then, Riddles builds several more Standard 8 Pacifics for further development. However these would only be preambles to Riddles getting the final word on BR steam.
The Standard 9 Mountain and 10F 2-10-2 engines were first built in 1954 after extensive testing of the biggest steamers still in service. These large engines share boilers, the use of Bulleid-Firth drive wheels, four cylinder drive, and a four-axle tender design. The Standard 9 is most at home on express passenger trains and the then-budding intermodal freight traffic. Whereas the 10F proves to be the critical darling of freight traffic especially on the WCML and in Wales, with 9Fs handling what few trains they couldn't handle. Both classes were among the last standing alongside the Standard 5 4-6-0 as steam came to a close, and several of each are in preservation today.
I think this is where the diversion is for me mainly. Circumstance sees the LMS Men somewhat stomped down by former WD personnel and those from the GWR which is what leads to the BR standards in the "8 and above" bracket. Riddles and Ivatt want to completely ditch the idea of Pacifics and Consolidations post war, feeling that Super Power for the UK is the way forward. However, the butting of heads occurs when others come into play. Ivatt and Riddles want to build 4-8-4s as a "9/10MT", 4-6-4s as "8P", and 2-10-2s or simple articulateds in the 9/10F power bracket. However, a lot of traditionalists in BR dislike how they are trying to shake things up hence why the Class 5 "Glens" 4-4-2s are not built as 4-4-4s as planned, The 8P which Riddles proposed after the Harrow and Wealdstone Crash is turned out as Duke of Gloucester OTL and the 4-8-4 is cut down to a standard boilered version of the Peppercorn Mountain. The 2-10-2 runs headlong into reality and Riddles again proposes his 2-6-6-4 as a solution but BR management dislikes the idea of using a simple articulated design and ultimately goes with a Garratt (originally a 4-8-2+2-8-4, later a 4-8-4+4-8-4).
However, Riddles does draw up a line of "New Standards" in the early 1960s following the government asking for a contingency in the event of war or crisis. Riddles takes the opportunity that BR has committed to bump up the loading gauge (to W13 or Berne) more generally to draw a line of BR Standards to continental dimensions from small "Type 1" 2-6-2s (proposed Class 903) to massive "Type 5" Challengers (Proposed class 953)
My decisions stem from my feeling that British locomotives didn't exactly need the kind of large steamers here in the States or even those built in the UK for export to Africa or other regions with rail infrastructure that was simply less sturdy. That's why in my TL, the LMS Stanier 10F is the only 4-8-4 build for domestic use in the UK, and the Bulleid Merchant Navies and the LNER Mountains are the only 4-8-2s.
On a related note, I alreay evisioned that in TTL, the LMS would modify their facilities at London, Crewe, Carlisle, and Glasgow specifically for the 4-8-4s to take advantage of their ability to run further distances. Whereas the 4-6-4s would mostly be able to use pre-existing facilities. Likewise, the LNER 4-8-2s and the 2-10-2s (both ex-GCR and the Gresley S4s) are used mainly in the north for the havy industry, with one consequence being the lack of a Garratt.
Worth noting is that both engines were originally built as four-cylinder compounds similar to @Luath's old idea. However, Stanier later rebuilt both classes as simpler three-cylinder designs to make them more efficient on top of his own Pacifics and a 9F Mikado.
Another possibility I considered is that Gresley modifies his P1 Mikado design for use on fast freights, and they're enough of a success post-revisions that Peppercorn builds a few P1s of his own. Though Gresley does go back to build a 2-10-2 the same time as his I1 Mountains for use on heavy coal trains.
Another possibility @Luath just suggested is that Stanier is inspired to build the Coronation class as his proposed 4-6-4s, and built the 4-8-4 he also proposed. And at the same time rebuilt the Hughes Pacifics and Mikados to simpler three-cylinder designs that remove the compounding.
This is a slight deviation since the WD, through experience during the war, want the capacity of the network upgraded as the first and foremost part of the modernisation plan (with the already fairly generous GWML being first to get this treatment), this results in people like Riddles doing some planning for such an eventuality leading to some very huge designs. However, this ultimately is paused in the mid-70s with only the GWML as far as Exeter, the WCML as far as Crewe and militarily vital lines actually upgraded. Hence why the huge Riddles later standards never come about really. It's only really in the 2020s and 2030s that BRs vision of the 60s and 70s comes about. Foster Yeoman even experimentally tries a set of ES40DC units in the 2030s (but eventually goes with Voith built units since even by then only maybe three lines in the country can take them)
Fair enough. Going back to before BR Standards, here are some ideas @Luath helped inspire for LMS steam.
My idea would be first and foremost that George Hughes builds both his proposed Pacific and Mikado locomotives for long-distance trains on the WCML, the LMS being convinced to greenlight these based on his L&YR 2-10-0. Both of these locomotive classes, the Pacifics being named after Explorers, are built as four-cylinder compound locomotives. However, their weakness in terms of maintenance prove a distraction from their sheer strength when the LMS needed it the most.
When Stanier takes over as the CME, he rebuilds both the Pacifics and Mikados as simple four-cylinder machines with Belpaire-equipped boilers, and four-axle tenders. Under Stanier these locomotives work mainly work the heaviest trains while Black Fives and 8Fs handle more medium-sized loads and a class of 4P 2-6-2s handle medium express trains. Meanwhile small Moguls and tank engines handle the smaller stuff like branchline work and shunting.
After the Princess Royal Pacifics however, Stanier decides to go beast mode. He proposes his 9P Coronation class as a 4-6-4 Baltic, and a 10MT 4-8-4 for use on long-distance mixed-traffic service over the WCML. The intention with both locomotives being that they can make the journey from Euston to Glasgow with maintenance stops only being needed in Crewe and Carlisle, facilitated by them both using the long four-axle tenders Stanier had designed for his rebuild of the Hughes locomotives. Both locomotives are approved and once in service, both easily give the Gresley/Peppercorn 4-8-2s on the ECML a run for their money [1].
Stanier's Swindon roots lead to a recursive case of inspiration. After the war, the GWR allows Hawksworth to build his County class as a Pacific intended for dual service work. In turn this leads to the Cathedral class Pacifics that Hawksworth wanted finally getting built.
[1] New idea: Arthur Peppercorn is named Gresley's successor immediately after Gresley retires thanks to topping his career with the I1 4-8-2. However Peppercorn does take Edward Thompson's word on the need to standardize. He greenlights Thompson's design for K1 Moguls, B1 4-6-0s, O1 2-8-0s, and L1 2-6-4Ts for construction under this scheme. However, Peppercorn does design his express locomotives as Peppercorn I1 4-6-2s and I2 4-8-2s thanks to the success of the six-strong Gresley I1s, and after the war does build a Peppercorn S1 2-10-2 for freight.
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Another possibility, what if Peppercorn were to not rebuild the P2 Mikados as Pacifics, but instead fit them with Walscherts and see what difference that made.
Following on from my AU, we have the 1946 28XX conversions authorised under Hawksworth due to the British Coal Policy following WW2 being detrimental to the GWR. Essentially Hawksworth designed a new larger boiler for the class with a wider firebox to allow for greater combustion of lower quality coal. There are two in the AU converted before the project was stopped in favour of building the 4-6-0+0-6-4 and later iterations of engines in the proposed standards such as a 4-8-2 based on the Night Owls and Kings. (if you guys would like a more detailed story behind it just say - top picture is Andrewk4s take on the 28XX with the rebuilt version being modified from his - I use his scale of "about 1 in per pixel" is all of my more original designs as well but just thought I'd specify that this is not fully original and credit goes to him for his amazing work making cool looking trains)
And for my wholly original designs we have the Chemin de fer du Saint Laurent 041.ET - a 2ft gauge reversed Connie which is sort of based on the 0-8-2T built by Baldwin for the 2ft 6in gauge Cyprus Mine Railway. This thing kicks out a fairly ludicrous (for 2ft gauge) 16,650 lbf of tractive effort and is mostly used as a banking engine by the line.
(Yes I am fully aware the text looks awful, I plan on reworking the livery when I make more CFSL locomotives)
Ever seen @ThePolarWorks and his locomotive ideas? Maybe he has some ideas?
And for my wholly original designs we have the Chemin de fer du Saint Laurent 041.ET - a 2ft gauge reversed Connie which is sort of based on the 0-8-2T built by Baldwin for the 2ft 6in gauge Cyprus Mine Railway. This thing kicks out a fairly ludicrous (for 2ft gauge) 16,650 lbf of tractive effort and is mostly used as a banking engine by the line.
(Yes I am fully aware the text looks awful, I plan on reworking the livery when I make more CFSL locomotives)