Top Locomotives Never Built

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Andrew Boyd, Oct 21, 2018.

  1. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    The successor to the "Top Movies/ T Shows/ Video Games Never Made" series of threads. But this time with a more offbeat premise...

    Railroad Locomotives.

    That's right. Locomotives; wether they be steam, diesel, or electric, this is where you can described your dream railroad engine.

    Feel free to post away like I will. Just remember to follow this temple.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  2. NOMISYRRUC Get Your Trousers On, You're Nicked!

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2014
    Locomotive: Electric Express Two (EE-2)

    Configuration: 2-Co-2

    Company: North Eastern Railway

    Years of production: 1922-26


    This was the production version of the sole EE-1 prototype (which was actually built) for the proposed electrification of the British East Coast Main Line (ECML) between Newcastle and York, plus Ferryhill-Stockton-Northallerton and Newport to Middlesbrough.

    When originally proposed in 1919 IOTL scheme was expected to take 2-3 years to carry out. However, by 1921 it had been split into 2 parts. Stage 1 was Newcastle to Darlington and would take 2 years. Stage 2 was Darlington to York, plus Northallerton-Stockton-Ferryhill and Newport to Middlesbrough, which was expected to take 3 years to complete.

    ITTL the NER Board approved the "Full Scheme" early in 1921. Stage 1 was completed in 1923 and Stage 2 was completed before the end of 1926. A grand total of 108 electric locomotives replaced 215 steam locomotives as follows:

    Newcastle to York 1921.png
    The freight locomotives were of the Electric Freight Two (EF-2) type which was a development of the 10 EF-1 locomotives built for the Shildon to Newport electrification scheme.

    Here's a link to the page on the LNER website about the EE1 prototype which IOTL was built https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  3. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Morrison-Knudsen AEM-8

    Known affectionately as the 'Bigger Toaster' or the 'Swiss Chocolate Box' by railfans, the AEM-8 was the bigger of the AEM-7/AEM-8 pairing bought by Amtrak in the 1980s in order to retire it's ancient GG1 and unsuccessful E60 electric fleet as well as assorted hand-me-downs, the Swiss-designed AEM-8 was in most ways a perfect complement to the fast, smooth AEM-7, trading ultimate top speed and acceleration for pulling power and tractive effort, while retaining the almost-mythical reliability that Amtrak's electric locomotive fleet was famous for.

    Designed by Brown, Boveri and Cie, Morrison-Knudsen and Swiss Locomotive and Machine Works as a design capable of operating on both sides of the Atlantic, the AEM-8 would ultimately see use in the Netherlands, Italy and Canada as well as the United States, but it's original user was Amtrak. Ordered in 1978 and with the first units delivered in 1982, the AEM-8, originally somewhat controversial with the success of the AEM-7, proved every bit as good as its smaller Swedish-American counterpart, capable of handling anything Amtrak asked of them.

    Allowing the AEM-7 to handle the Metroliners and regional services in the Northeast and Keystone Corridors and cross-border services between New York and both Montreal and Toronto, the AEM-8 was assigned to hauling the longer long-distance trains, as well as Amtrak's operations on Conrail's electrified Lines West between Seattle and the end of the wires at McLaughlin, South Dakota. Heading up all of Amtrak's flagship trains that run under the wires, the locomotives proved strong and reliable, and capable of both keeping schedules while supplying the necessary power for train hotel loads - a flaw of the AEM-7, which frequently had problems in this regard.

    Like it's smaller partner and the GG1s before then, the AEM-8 never had a single operational failure while in service and while two units (1017 and 1025) were lost to accidents, the entire AEM-8 fleet was refurbished at the same time as the AEM-7s were in the early 2000s, and even with the arrival of the Alco Millenium 210EP in the 1990s there was never any doubt about the AEM-8's performance, and all 74 surviving AEM-7s and 38 AEM-8's after rebuilding remain parts of Amtrak's fleet. While the proliferation of EMUs and the development of the Acela Express and then the American High-Speed Fleet in the 1990s and 2000s bumped the AEM-7s off of their original purpose, today fleets of the now AC-driven AEM fleet remain heading many of Amtrak's long-distance trains, and their turf has dramatically expanded from when they were built in the 1980s....
     
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  4. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    @TheMann

    Excellent.

    Do you perhaps have some steam engine to share here? Like those CN Garratts?
     
  5. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Pennsylvania Railroad R3 4-8-4 "Keystone"

    During the late 1920s and early 30s, the Pennsylvania Railroad wanted to look for a new locomotive to replace the K4 Pacifics on passenger service. While there was a surplus of them because of the PRR's electrification program in the NE Corridor, simply double-heading them was inefficient because of how expensive the crews were.

    In response, the PRR conceived several possible ideas for a replacement. The first idea was the K5 Pacific, which was basically a larger and better K4 but was not particularly well liked. After the K5, the PRR attempted the R2 series, 4-8-4s which were essentially the M1 Mountain with a larger firebox. However, the R2 was not considered paticularly suitable for passengers and joined the M1 Cousins on fast freight service instead.

    The ultimate solution came in when the PRR board remembered the strength of the Timken 1111 when built. As such, they consulted Baldwin and Lima and devised a second batch of 4-8-4s. Only this time, with more power and elegance in the design. The end result was the R3 locomotive. Known as the "Keystones" by the railroad, this engine combined the latest in Lima and Baldwin's locomotive ideas. Most notably Lima's then newly created Double Belpaire Firebox, which increased the steaming capacity beyond what the conventional Belpaire Firebox was capable of. Also included were such features as Timken Roller Bearings, and 16-wheel "Coast to Coast" tenders. The last of which would become common on many PRR engines later on.

    The first engine, number 7100, rolled out of the Juniata Shops in Altoona on March 6, 1933. Soon the Keystone was a massive hit among crews and the Public. They were powerful, fast, cheap to build, and easy to upgrade and experiment upon, essentially making them to American railroads the Black 5 was to British railroads. 300 of the type were built until 1935 by Altoona, Baldwin, and Lima. Many were also experiment on in the late 1940s and 50s with such experiments as various valve gears, poppet valves, various kinds of smoke deflectors, the many innovations and inventions of Argentine Designer Livio Dante Porta, and even a few condensing tenders.

    As said, they mainly worked as the long sought successor to the K4. Pulling the fastest trains in the PRR passenger fleet. At least 20 engines were streamlined by Raymond Lowey in a style similar to K4 1120 for use on such trains as the Broadway Limited to Chicago and the Jeffersonian to St. Louis. In addition to all this passenger work, the Keystones could also be seen on fast freight trains, though they were not so suitable for slower freights.

    Despite their success, the PRR still introduced the T1 Duplex, and also had the N&W shops build several modern Pacifics known as the K6s. But these two new classes never truly displaced the Keystones. As the Keystone was far more powerful than the K6, and more reliable than the T1. These engines would go on to inspire several other 4-8-4 types. Among them the J class 4-8-4s, the most prized engine of PRR subsidiary Norfolk and Western. As well as such significant steam engines as the C&O J-3a "Greenbriers," the post-war SNCF 4-8-4s of Andre Chapelon, and the South African Railways 25NC.

    However, not even the best things last forever. When the PRR began electrifying, many steamers were retired en masse. The Keystone was among the last to go due to their versatility, and they finished their lives on freight in the PRR Lines West. The last of the Keystones, number 7236, leaving the roster on August 6, 1969 after pulling a merchandise freight train from Harrisburg to Columbus.

    Today, several Keystones are preserved across the PRR's system. Signifiant examples include 7106, which was part of the PRR Collection before moving to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. Also there is the 7337 at the Indiana Transportation Museum in Logansport, and the 7100 at the Americas Rail Museum in Jersey City, along with a collection of many a collection of engines from around the world. But the most famous example is 7216, which was preserved with K4 1361 on Horseshoe Curve until 1987, when preservationists had the two restored; both engines became major stars and started the Pennsy 150 Excursions with a doubleheader from Altoona to Pittsburgh on April 9, 1996.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 11:51 AM
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  6. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Canadian National Railways Class V-1-a 4-8-2+2-8-4 "Superpower"

    The largest steam locomotives to ever see service in Canada, the 'Superpower' Garratts were an initially-odd choice that reflected Canadian National Railways' desire during its Sir Henry Thornton-run era for technical innovation, which was rampant even in the era of steam locomotives, and despite the locomotives being of a fairly rare type in North America, the class performed so well at its job that the locomotives lasted until the end of steam on CN in 1960, and four were preserved

    Built to handle heavy freight trains, the huge oil-fueled locomotive was built using a unique design that placed the cab ahead of the boiler for better visibility, a 'cab-forward' arrangement made possible by the use of using fuel oil instead of coal. The Class V-1-a was developed alongside the massive fleet of 4-8-2s and 4-8-4s that CN acquired in the 1930s, done primarily because the fleet of 4-6-2s CN had relied on since the early 1900s were incapable of handling heavy mainline loads and the many 2-8-0s and 2-8-2s CN used were capable of the pulling power CN needed but not the speeds necessary. (CN's rapidly-growing freight traffic in the 1920s and 1930s, however, saved the Consolidations and Mikados from retirement, and indeed a great many of the 2-8-0s were rebuilt at CN's famed Transcona Shops in Winnipeg, Manitoba in the 1930s as 2-8-4s.) The Garratts, originally taken on after the success of Garratts in service in Africa and Australia, were originally a 'try it and see what happens' deal, but the first, CN 9000, built by Beyer Peacock in England and delivered to CN in 1931, proved so successful at its job that CN quickly negotiated a license between Beyer Peacock and Company and Montreal Locomotive Works and ordered 54 more units in 1933, with all delivered between 1934 and 1938.

    The V-1-a was designed to be as modern as any other CN locomotive, and has all the features of such - roller bearings on all axles, integral cast engine bed frames that incorporate the cylinders, 300 psi boiler, Belpaire firebox, thermic syphons, Scullen disc drivers, Worthington feedwater heater and Gresley-Holcroft valve gear, the last portion somewhat controversial at first until CN's maintenance crews found that precise alignment of the valve gear and the use of roller bearings in the valve gear fixed most of the problems with it. Aluminum was used in many places to reduce weight and lower the central of gravity of the locomotive. Virtually all CN 4-8-2s, 4-8-4s and 2-8-4s used double Kylchap exhausts and the Garratts were no exception, and the V-1-a was fitted with a massive 100-inch diameter boiler to produce plenty of steam needed for twelve cylinders of the locomotive. Well aware of the work of Andre Chapelon in France, CN's design engineers indeed used many of the same theories and developments, and the Garratt was indeed their masterwork.

    The most powerful steam locomotive in the world when introduced in 1934, the V-1-a was capable of hauling 3,000-ton trains at speeds of up to 60 mph - speeds normally unheard of for Garratts and tonnage unheard of almost anywhere else in the world. Canadian Pacific's 4-6-6-4 Challengers, introduced the previous year, had little on it - indeed it took Union Pacific's titanic Big Boys and Southern Pacific's enormous AC-11 cab-forwards to match the Canadian beast. The 55 units built between 1931 and 1938 were joined by 17 more in 1940 and 1941 to assist CN with its huge wartime loads. To the company and its crews, the locomotives were lovingly named the "Superpower" locomotives and the seventeen delivered during the war gained the nickname the "Gods of War". Loved by the engine crews, the oil-fueled Garratt ran cleaner than the vast majority of steam locomotives and rode better than most, and the locomotive's flexibility on curves to be a huge asset even on CN's heavily-laid main lines.

    After the war, more design improvements followed it, and even as diesel power began to arrive on CN in numbers demand kept the big steam engines in use until the arrival of large numbers of EMD GP9, SD9 and RF16 locomotives, along with Alco RS3 and RS11 types, bumped steam off of CN lines in the late 1950s - and even then, the smaller branch lines usually saw diesels arrive first, as CN's ever-intelligent management felt it was better to get all the use possible out of its mighty big steamers, and the Transcona-built 2-8-4s, 'Bullet Nose Bettys' 4-8-2s, the 'Confederation' 4-8-4s and the Garratts were among the last to go, simply because their power was still needed right to the end. Moved from their traditional grounds of the West to Ontario by diesel power in the mid-1950s, the V-1-a locomotives lived out their last days on the heavy freights of the Mineral Belt, Lake Superior, Muskoka, Ottawa Valley and Algonquin divisions before being retired in 1959 and 1960.

    After retirement, units 9000, 9005, 9016, 9025, 9053 and 9071 (the last one built by MLW in 1945) were preserved, with 9016 joining locomotives 2627, 5552, 6060, 6167, 6213 and 6218 in excursion service in 1964, with all seven being a part of CN's exhibitions at Expo 67 in Montreal. After CN's excursion program ended in 1970, the locomotive was put on display at Roundhouse Park in Toronto in 1976, remaining there until it was brought back to CN ownership in 1998 and returned to excursion operations in 2001. Unit 9005 passed through a couple private owners (including famed auto magnate Cameron Westland) before being donated by Westland to the Americas Rail Museum in Jersey City in 1997, while 9000 remains in operating condition at the Canadian Museum of Science and Technology in Ottawa and 9053, along with CPR Challenger 6516, are the centerpieces of an exhibit at the Canadian Museum of Civilization in Ottawa.
     
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  7. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    The Beyer Peacock T1 0-6-0T

    In the early 1910s, Beyer Peacock decided to begin building a standardized set of tank engines for use by those who requested tank engines from them.

    To create a design, the company studied various kinds of 0-6-0 tank engines. In the end, the company settled on a variation of the London, Brighton, and South Coast E2 locomotives.

    However, this new engine, known as the T1 class, had some notable differences. They were noticeably shorter than the E2 class, and has a set of splashers over the leading driving wheels. Their water tanks also appeared closer to the later batch of engines, although they were more squared in shape than the originals. The T1's rear buffer beam was also higher than on the original engines, although it was deeper to allow the buffers, coupling hook, and vacuum brake hoses to be in the correct position. A later build, called the T1x, had a straight running board which flattened the back buffer beam to the level of the front.

    Most importantly however was the shorter wheelbase, which guaranteed more flexibility in yards. Plus the larger coal bunker which allowed for more route availability.

    The first T1 was built in 1913, and many were built during World War 1 for the ROD to operate in France. Many of the type stayed there after the war, while many more were built for domestic use back in England. The largest British purchaser of the type was the Southern Railway, which naturally used them to replace the E2s on Southampton Dock service. The only railroad not to buy very many was the LMS, who instead opted out for the Jinty type.

    During the interwar years, liberal amounts of this type could be seen all across the UK on switching duty, including for even the Big Four railroads and industrial lines. They were found to be particularly best at short-distance branchline passenger trains, and as such many were equipped with push-pull equipment.

    During the Second World War, many T1s were built for use for the army. Several engines of the design were even built by ALCO in for use by the USATC, with some even going to private railroads like the Lake Shore Interurban after 1945. Most of the T1s built during the war went to the European mainland after the war, with many going to Italy and Poland.

    The T1's ubiquity led to the Rev. W. Awdry designing his most famous character after the class. That said, it's safe to say that unlike Thomas, the T1s never fell down mines or crashed into stationmaster's houses.

    After the war, many T1s in Britain survived into the 1960s, when the 08 Diesels replaced them en masse. Thankfully, many are preserved across England and even still in revenue service in Eastern Europe. One American built example is on display at the Americas Rail Museum. Where it has been painted to represent Thomas and coupled up to a pair of LMS Suburban coaches painted in orange. Here, children go in to watch Thomas videos on TVs installed inside the coaches.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  8. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Care to elaborate on these and the CN 2-8-4s? I ask out of curiosity, as usual.

    How about some American steam power you imagined, or some thoughts on my ideas.
     
  9. NHBL Long Time Member, CMII

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    I've sketched out a series of locomotives for the Great North Central Rail Road. The line results from a merger of the Sandy River and Rangely Lakes, and the Wiscasset, Waterville, and Farmington. (Very large names for a very narrow line; they're both two foot gauge.)
    As the Prairie (2-6-2) that was the heavy power began to be a but underpowerd, they built a few 2-8-2's for freight. The Baldwin 4-6-6-4's were even more powerful, but could only be turned around in a few places; they didn't fit on the turntables.

    Needing powerful locomotives, they turned to Alco, who had (but in OTL, never used) the license for the Garratt. The Garratts could run equally well in either direction, and the 4-6-2 + 2-6-4's were a riproaring success.

    For fast passenger service, 4-6-4's hauled the fast express trains all over Maine.

    In the later part of the 20th century, some conversion to diesel happened, and C-C and B-B+B-B Alco diesels took to the rails, smoking as much as their standard gauge counterparts. They weren't the railroad's first diesels, though. In 1922, some demobilized submariners rigged up a diesel-electric on a flat car; their odd contraption was a successful switcher.

    These are all 2 foot gauge.

    That's the alternative history of the Great North Central's motive power in a nutshell.
    https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...h-central-railroad-a-2-gauge-timeline.376136/
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
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  10. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    In my world here, Canadian Pacific and Union Pacific both made a demand to Alco for a high-horsepower fast locomotive, and the Challenger was the result. The design is similar in frame and drive system, but they are entirely different in firebox - the UP units use a round top unit with a mechanical stoker for the use of coal firing, while CPR units use a Belpaire firebox and is meant for oil fuel, which resulted in the CPR being a higher pressure boiler (300 psi against 275 for the UP units) and while somewhat less fuel efficient as a result, the CPR units ended up as hugely powerful free steamers and capable of nearly 100 mph with lighter trains, and even despite teething troubles with wheelslip and in many cases bent side rods and valve gear issues they ended up being the railroad's biggest sledgehammers. The CPR Challengers ended up being the company's best tool for fast freight and passenger service, and they lasted in this role well into the 1950s, and they ended up being great heavy freight engines too.

    The Transcona 2-8-4s effectively were ex-GTW 2-8-0s rebuilt between 1934 and 1937 at the Transcona Shops with many of the principles developed by Lima's 'Super Power' series of locomotives. The original locomotives are completely dismantled and rebuilt with all new components. They use the frames and modified boilers and cylinder designs of the original engines and not much else, and they are more or less equals of Van Sweringen-era Berkshires. Not quite as powerful as the 4-8-2s and 4-8-4s CN built in number in the 1930s and 1940s, but they are still massively powerful freight engines.
     
  11. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
  12. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Canadian National Railways Class N-6-a/N-6-b 2-8-4 "Transcona Builds"

    The "Transcona Builds" were the result of one of the most expansive rebuilding projects ever undertaken by Canadian National Railways, done as a result of the fortunate combination of locomotive age and use, growing traffic demands and political demands for work for one of Canadian National's primary rebuilding shops. The N-6 class 2-8-4s, built between 1934 and 1937, were another development of the Lima 'Super Power' concept of the 1920s, though as with virtually all CNR designs of the 1930s, the locomotives combined both British and North American design elements, using big Belpaire fireboxes (useful for both oil-fueled locomotives like the Garratts and many 4-8-2s and for coal-burners like the Transcona Builds and most 4-8-4s) and high-pressure boilers on top of older frames, with the N-6-b having the additional new element of rotary valve gear meant to improve efficiency, though the N-6-b ended up being rather more maintenance-intensive.

    In practice, the Transcona Builds began life as class N-4 2-8-0s built by Montreal Locomotive Works and the American Locomotive Company for the Grand Trunk between 1906 and 1911. By the 1930s these old engines had been replaced in freight service first by 2-8-2 Mikados and then by ever-larger locomotives, and the age and condition of many of the engines by the 1930s led to plans for many of them to be scrapped, particularly as many of them sat on the storage lines at the company's shops in Battle Creek and Pontiac, Michigan as a result of the drop in traffic that resulted from the Great Depression and the many USRA Heavy Mikados that the Grand Trunk operated beginning in the late 1910s and early 1920s. Seeing this and with the growth of Canada's own government New Deal in 1933, the Grand Trunk asked for new power to join its ubiquitous Mikados in 1933.

    But famed CNR locomotive engineer Eric Redfield had a better idea. Redfield had done an apprenticeship at the Lima Locomotive Works in 1925 and had been one of the designers and builders of the first "Super-Power" locomotives at Lima, and he had for years advocated for CN to buy from Lima despite the strangehold on the company that MLW and the Canadian Locomotive Company in Kingston, Ontario, had on CN orders. Aware of the list of locomotives sitting on the deadlines in Michigan and able to negotiate with Lima on the designs, he got Lima in 1932 to develop a "Super-Power" derivative for the CNR using the mothballed N-4s as a base for the design. CNR's political masters, however, were unwilling to have Lima do this at their Ohio plant, but Lima instead developed a compromise - CN's immense Transcona Shops in Winnipeg, Manitoba, would do the rebuilds, with some parts made in Lima and with Lima's employees supervising the operation. This was acceptable to Ottawa, and on May 10, 1933, the first two N-4s were pulled from the deadline at Battle Creek for their trip to Manitoba and rebuilding.

    The combination of Lima's development engineers, CN's engineers and the fabricators and builders at Transcona produced something special indeed. Not much of the original N-4s was left when they were finished with the rebuilds - the joke of the Lima engineers was that the Transcona Shops kept the headlights and number plates and scrapped everything else - but the resulting engine, though using CN's standard Belpaire firebox and Scullen disc drivers, was pure Lima Super Power in many aspects. A 90-inch diameter, 45-foot long boiler at 260 pounds pressure sat between heavily-modified N-4 frame rails which used cast steel ends to hold the rails together. A four-wheel trailing truck with booster was built by Lima in Ohio and shipped to Winnipeg was an integral part of the design, and Elesco superheaters and Baker valve gear, both unusual for CNR, were part of the design, as was the giant fourteen-wheel Centipede tender design, custom-designed by the designers at Transcona to carry 40 tons of coal and 24,000 gallons of water, giving the N-6 a fuel range of nearly 500 miles. Standard for CNR steam, however, was the roller bearings throughout the design, which combined with lightweight side rods and incredibly-precise counterbalancing to make for smooth ride qualities in addition to huge power. 69-inch drivers gave a balance of power versus speed, and like the new-built locomotives the rebuilds used aluminum in many places to save weight and focus the weight on the drivers. A sizable fully-weatherized cab came with the design - this is Canada, after all - and the locomotive was equipped for the cab signal system used by CN.

    So finished, the first two N-6-a locomotives rolled out of the Transcona Shops on April 25, 1934, in the presence of CN President Sir Henry Thornton, who is known to have commented "If this is what we can turn old engines into, we may never buy a new one again!" The N-6s were so good at their job in testing that they more than once hauled trains of the Great Canadian Fleet, and within the month Thornton had ordered that every one of the 220 members of the N-4 class be sent to Winnipeg for rebuilding. Indeed all 220 were rebuilt, the last one delivered in November 1937.
     
  13. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Excellent. Any comments about the CP Challengers?

    Or, what do you think of my two steam engine ideas? The PRR 4-8-4 and the tank engine.
     
  14. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    This one is based on ideas from @Republic of Michigan.

    The Pennsylvania Railroad K6 4-6-2s, L2 2-8-2s, and H11 2-8-0s


    After it became a subsidiary of the Pennsylvania Railroad, the Norfolk & Western prepared for the inevitable in several ways. Namely repainting much of its rolling stock, relabelling many of its older engines, and the like.

    Meanwhile, the PRR took a good look at its helter-skelter numbering system, and created a new system to install some order in the matter. From then on regarding company papers, the classification placed before the engine's number two letters; one for the type of motive power, and the second of the class. For example, L1 Mikado 520 became SL-520, M1 6726 became SM-6726, and GG1 4899 would become EGG-4899. The list went on, but it did allow for an easier numbering system, at the coast of having to include a few minor details when giving engine crews their orders. In addition, the PRR's executives surveyed many N&W maintenance facilities and used the new knowledge to upgrade their own at Altoona, Columbus, Chicago, and many other key steam operating places on the railroad.

    But the N&W also knew if they played its cards right, they could show the men at the PRR how good their engines actually were. With merger imminent, they would want to show the PRR their worthiness, and would send them samples of their A, J and Y6 classes. The J's would be used across the system, best showing off its skills on the Ft. Wayne Division by reaching 110-120 MPH. They were considered to be both on par and better than PRR's own T1 class in various respects, but most of the advantages the Js had over the T1s were already possessed by the R3s. Even so, the Js were still not considered the best locomotives for use over Horseshoe Curve. The N&W J class, now the R5, while exceptional, remained only on the PRR Lines West and the N&W proper. Occasionally they would make runs up to Harrisburg and even Philadelphia if needed. But only 6 more, #614-619 were built by the N&W’s shops. The A and Y classes fared just as good, if not better. The A's were used all across the system as well, showing off their 4 cylinder abilities and putting the Q2 duplexes to shame in both power and service range. Both the A and Y6 classes gave an exceptional demonstration on Horseshoe Curve and over the Pennsylvania hills. With just one engine on the front and one on the rear, the Y6s were able to handle trains that would probably require at least three engines, if not two separate trains with two engines each, while still maintaining a decent rate of speed. The As handled passenger trains that would normally require two M1s at the same speed.

    The PRR also saw that many of its locomotives were old. While it did have plenty of locomotives on hand, many had been built in the 1910s and early 20s. The railroad had two options. Rebuild the fleet and try to keep them going as long as possible, or retire the oldest ones and replace them with new engines that were capable of receiving modern upgrades. The PRR chose the latter and started construction in 1947.

    With both Altoona and Roanoke under their belt, they moved ahead and started preliminary design drafts. Roanoke was assigned the task of taking the K4, L1 and H class designs and redesigning them with modern steam technology that the N&W had used on their engines. Roller bearings, self-lubricating systems, automatic stokers and better steaming capabilities all went into the models. The K6 and L1 types also had twelve-wheeled tenders that were unstreamlined versions of the one used by K4 3768 on the Broadway Limited in the 1930s. The first new engines; K6 SL-5700, L2 SL-8500 and H11 SH-9200 were released from Roanoke on March 3, 1949.

    The K6 and L2s were basically identical to their K4 and L1 predecessors but were reclassed as such to identify that they were newer and modernized versions. The H11 on the other hand incorporated elements from several previous H classes as well as N&W’s practices and was a completely new engine all around. Meanwhile, other locomotives such as the G5, K4 and L1 classes that were retained were rebuilt with the modern equipments that were provided from Roanoke. Eventually, the K4 Pacifics all received the twelve wheel tenders used on the K6s.

    The K6 was often seen on secondary passenger trains because most primary passenger trains were run by the T1 Duplexes and R3 4-8-4s. But there were plenty of occasions where they could indeed be seen on the Broadway Limited or Jeffersonian. The K6 often doubleheaded with the K4 cousins on fantrips, though the K6 was perfectly capable of longer and heavier loads than the K4. The L2 was likewise essentially the same thing to the L1. They were more capable of stronger and heavier freights trains, sometimes even rivaling the M1 Mountains in terms of ability to haul trains at speed. They were often seen on the line from Cincinnati to Chicago via Logansport, Indiana, often relaying coals trains bought over from the N&W to the Windy City. The H11 was fairly overlooked in comparison to the other engines. Largely because they were mainly used on branchlines and secondary routes. Most notably the lines from Harrisburg to Erie and Buffalo. Also common for them was the famous banchline from Logansport to South Bend.

    Today, examples of all three Roanoke-built types, namely K6 5712, L2 8503, and H11 9526, are preserved in Roanoke, alongside the original N&W Big Three of J class 604, A class 1212, and Y6a 2147. Other survivors include K6 5702, H11 9505, and L2 8510 at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. K6s 5714 and 5732 have joined the K4s and other PRR and N&W steamers on numerous fantrips over the PRR.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 1:58 PM
    Indiana Beach Crow likes this.
  15. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Did CN really use the Belpaire that much? I haven't seen much picture of CN steamers using the kind of firebox.
     
  16. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    The Union Pacific Railroad FEF-4 4-8-4 "Super 800s"

    In 1942, the Union Pacific commitee made a design for a possible new mixed traffic engine. This engine would be another member of the FEF series, and had aType A Superheater, 350 lbs. Boiler Pressure, 81" Driving Wheels, 4 Stacks, a 174x100 Firebox, Roller Bearings on the entire thing, Air Chimes, large exhaust nozzles, the WRTN SA Feedwater Heater, Twin sealed-beams headlight, a Mars red warning light, French smoke lifters, and 25 x 32 cylinders.

    In general, the end goal was a design that would be the pinacle of the Union Pacific 4-8-4. As they were meant to burn coal, they would be assigned to the Wyoming and Nebraska divisions. As well as on the former Central Pacific which UP shared 50/50 with the Southern Pacific, and further east on the former C&NW to Chicago.

    This design had been drawn up during the war, but placed on hold until it ended in 1945. This new engine differed from past 800s in that it had full roller bearings, and four exhaust stacks. This engine was actually the same driver size, piston size, frame size as the FEF-2s, and 3s to help cut maintenance costs.

    Also in a matter in interest, the boiler was about the same size as the FEF-2s, and 3s, however the Super 800s had a larger fire box. It was meant to be more efficient at hauling both freight and passenger trains. It was also designed to have a all weather cab to comfort the crews in the severe Wyoming winter storms. The first 13 were released from ALCO in March 1946. Another 13 engines of the class were built in 1950. The second batch was different from the first half in that the involved engines used poppet valve gear as opposed to the Walscherts on the first engines.

    The 800s were among the last conventional steam engines on the Union Pacific to be operated. The Super 800s were no exception, and to the bitter end could be seen hauling fast trains on the Overland route, or over the former C&NW in Wisconsin.

    Today, many examples of the type still exist. But the notable example is 857, which was rebuilt by Andre Chapelon and Livio Dante Porta in 1953. When she emerged, 857 included such new-fangled technology as the Gas Producer Combustion System, Porta Water Treatment, and the Lempor Exhaust System. The 857’s makeover convinced the UP to continue operating steam engines for several more years, and even have a few more of their steamers rebuilt with the GPCS. Among those being refitted with it being all the previous 800s, the ex-C&NW Hudsons, all classes of Challengers, Garratts, and the Big Boys.

    857 ran trains until 1965, when The Chicago Railroad Institute chose her to represent the Union Pacific in their collection. Several more survive on display on other parts of the UP system. Including the first one, 845, at the Forney Museum in Denver with Big Boy 4005. Whereas 867, one of the engines fitted with Poppet Valves, is a member of the UP Heritage fleet. Often doubleheading with fellow FEF 844.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 2:47 PM
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  17. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    IOTL, no they didn't. My CNR, however, was run by people who sought out advancement at any opportunity they reasonably could, and CNR at its formation had a locomotive fleet almost entirely inherited from its predecessor lines. Here CNR's mechanical personnel improved just about everything they could reasonably do so, and ITTL all post-late 1920s CNR steam locomotives used Belpaire fireboxes for better efficiency.
     
  18. Andrew Boyd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    I take it otherwise the CN steamers are the same as OTL. Correct?
     
  19. TheMann Canuckwanker in Chief

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    The smaller ones for the most part are (they all get winterized cabs, stokers for coal-fired engines and roller bearings as they go through the shops) but there is rather more of them than OTL. CNR's go-to medium freight engines are 2-8-2s built mostly for predecessor lines and standardized as time goes and on and they get shopped out, with 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s as branch line engines.

    CNR's mechanical personnel have a policy of fitting locomotives with better equipment as they go through shop repairs and overhauls, and as a result all CN steam engines by 1946 or so have roller bearings, stokers, feedwater heaters and more efficient water pumps, winterized cabs and better-aligned valve gear, and main line engines also get fitted for cab signal equipment and larger tenders (particularly for coal or oil capacity).

    Post-1920s builds and rebuilds share the Belpaire fireboxes and most (aside from poppet valve builds of course) use Walscherts valve gear (the Transcona Builds and some Lima 2-8-4s supplied to CN by Lima during WWII [1] being exceptions in using Baker valve gear), either Scullen disc drivers or Bokpox drivers, steel alloy side rods and precision balancing. Kylchap exhausts were fitted to all 4-8-4s and Garratts and most 4-8-2s, as well as the later Transcona Builds. CNR never rostered any anticulateds, but the U-4-b 4-8-4s, the very last MLW passenger steam engines built in 1944, are similar in visual design to the shrouded 4-8-4s CN had IOTL (though with huge double tenders for coal and water) but similar in performance to your PRR R3s - capable of speeds up to 120 mph and pulling 20+ Pullmans at 100 mph continuously. Guess which units almost always head the Super Continental? :)

    Coal-fired engines are used primarily in Atlantic Canada, Quebec and Ontario, while oil-fueled engines hold sway on the Prairies. (Obviously there is some overlap to this, but that's the general rule.) Vanderbilt tenders were more or less universal on 2-8-2s and 4-6-2s, but everything bigger got bigger tenders obviously. CN's 'Great Canadian Fleet' of passenger trains got first dibs on the bigger passenger engines, and these, mail trains and fast freight took up most of the 4-8-4s, with 4-8-2s and 2-8-4s taking up other fast freight work. Until the Garratts spared enough 4-8-2s they could often be found paired with another 2-8-2 on heavier trains as well, and the guys at Transcona developed a special water tender (nicknamed "Keggers" by the crews) to allow a 4-6-2 + 2-8-4 double-head of heavy freights.

    [1] CN's massive wartime traffic led for them looking for power help in 1941-42, and between January and June 1942 Lima delivered 55 2-8-4s to CN in response. These units are effectively knock-offs of Nickel Plate Road S-series except for Belpaire fireboxes and New York Central-design fourteen-wheel Centipede tenders. Known as "Americans" to CN crews, they generally did the same jobs as the Transcona Built units, and with the same great results. These too lasted to the end of CNR steam in 1960.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  20. isayyo2 Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2014
    Location:
    SF bay
    So would all of the UP steam rebuilds see similar gains to the Red Devil? A Big Boy with a with Class 26 rebuild would add 40% more horsepower totaling to 8800HP! With the UP having about 250-300 of the most powerful and efficient steam locomotives how is system wide dieselization still possible or even economically justifiable?

    With the other roads noticing the UP's success in rebuild programs, most experimental high horsepower diesel or gas turbine locomotives would likely never make it off the drawing boards.