Riain
Banned
The main thing then is 'off the shelf', however surely this shouldn't be too difficult given the Typhoon operates alongside the US in various coalition environments.
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- Thread starter Tales Weaver
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The main thing then is 'off the shelf', however surely this shouldn't be too difficult given the Typhoon operates alongside the US in various coalition environments.
SsgtC
Banned
Except there's a pretty big difference between "operating alongside" and "fully integrated."
Riain
Banned
The Typhoon is a NATO aircraft and NATO has been working on interoperability for decades, its not like its a Russian aircraft. The base of NATO interoperability would be a decent start to integrate it into NORAD. In addition 'fully integrated' makes it sound as if Canadian aircraft will be operating of the Gulf of Mexico, but in reality the RCAF will be given areas of responsibility commensurate with their capabilities, basing etc.
I don't think the Typhoon and Rafale would make NORAD fall over, it would just cost a bit to make them mesh with NORAD.
Correct.
On the website "The National Interest" & "Qouro" both state that RAF Typhoons have already been integrated (software wise) with F-35 software allowing operations with both UK and US aircraft.
This shocked the US in regards to the UK's upgrade thinking it would take a few years.
Riain
Banned
That brings up another interesting thing about the F35, which upgrade paths will countries pursue?
I don't think it will take long for the so called 'standard' fighter will be massively different in each country.
Would the Super Hornet be much better than the European offerings in that regard? The US airforce doesn't operate it so it would still require its own separate logistics.
SsgtC
Banned
In the regard that it's already got all the required equipment, yes. No, the USAF doesn't operate it, but the USN does. And it is fully integrated into the NORAD defense network. Unlike the Typhoon or Rafale, which would require new equipment.
Riain
Banned
If the RCAF bought the Typhoon, it would also buy everything needed to support it which would include a significant building programme on bases to build specific facilities, and in the NORAD context would be operating within the 'National Support Base' where everything from deeper maintenance to fuel supply will be close at hand. Another thing that isn't talked about with the F35 is that the global support pool will be controlled by the US, where the best priority a foreign country can get will be 3 of 16, so if the RCAF bought the Typhoon it would (by necessity, and at greater expense) have greater control over its supply chain which will lead to greater robustness in time of serious conflict where supply chains are degraded.
Oh I didn't know the USN was integrated into NORAD, thought it was just the two Air Forces.
IIRC Dassault has actually even offered a full technology transfer, though I'm not sure Canada still has the capabilities to make full use of that (maybe the part of Bombardier that was once Canadair still exists?).
SsgtC
Banned
Their fighters have the equipment for it, though they don't necessarily fly missions for NORAD (9/11 being the obvious exception that comes to mind).
The thing(s) you are overlooking here are twofold:
A- We have a rather strong indigenous aerospace industry here with proven capabilities. We can deal with some of the air frame and hardware issues that may arise entirely on our own. We already have a diverse group of sub-contractors (component manufacture) that are integral to the F-35 program.
B- We have a "preferred customer" status with our Big Brother to the south. The fact that it's in their best interests to have our participation in the North American Air Defense supported is somewhat of a no-brainer. Whether our needs would be prioritized in the case of a "surge" situation would obviously be predicated on the threat assessment.
Yes, you are correct. Dassault did make this offer.
Personally I think we would be crazy to undertake such a deal.
The amount of money that would have to be dumped into setting up a production line in Cartierville (to build 88 aircraft), would be retarded.
The unit cost on an indigeniously produced Rafale would be eye-watering. Yes, we would keep more of the monies spent in the country through taxation but the question is? Who pays for the re-tooling at Bombardier/Cartierville?
I'll tell you who. ME. John Q Taxpayer.
And after we dump billions into building this fleet, what kind of support do we get from across the pond?
Therin lies the question.
Riain
Banned
I'm aware of that, but so do a lot of other countries, Marand here in Geelong is the prime for the engine change cradle and a secondary source for tailplanes. However Canada isn't a 1st (UK) or 2nd tier (Italy and the Netherlands ) partner, and its the US followed by these 3 that control the programme and access to key mission critical components.
Canada is a NATO + 3 country so gets to use priority 3, 2 being reserved for US forces and 1 reserved for the President. The best other countries get is priority 4. Canada is special, like the rest of us.
Riain
Banned
This is a very juicy plum, it gives canada far more sovereign control over their fighter fleet as well as standing up industry capabilities that would exert pressure on the global Rafale fleet.
The Russians once had their own proposal for a superjumbo jet that may well have dwarfed the Airbus A380.
Sukhoi KR-860, double decker, with built-in escalators.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860
Sukhoi KR-860, double decker, with built-in escalators.
Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_KR-860
On the other hand Canada could probably save a boat load of cash by just disbanding it's armed forces and just formally paying the US to provide security.
Isn't the Rafale pretty mediocre when it comes to 4.5 generation aircraft? I mean getting export orders for them has been like finding hens teeth.
Riain
Banned
A possible rival to the TSR2?
By that token the Super Hornet is super shit, with a single export and not even the USMC has bought it, whereas the Rafale has gained 3 exports and 2 domestic customers.
The purchase of a fleet of fighters is a major geopolitical/geostrategic move, so whole of government factors are as or more important as speed and bomb-load. As long as the plane has the acceptable performance envelope then things like tech transfer, industrial participation, overall deal, alliance-worthiness are why countries do or don't buy the Rafale.
A possible rival to the TSR2?
By that token the Super Hornet is super shit, with a single export and not even the USMC has bought it, whereas the Rafale has gained 3 exports and 2 domestic customers.
The purchase of a fleet of fighters is a major geopolitical/geostrategic move, so whole of government factors are as or more important as speed and bomb-load. As long as the plane has the acceptable performance envelope then things like tech transfer, industrial participation, overall deal, alliance-worthiness are why countries do or don't buy the Rafale.
That's because the Super Hornet is a piece of junk. I talked to a guy who flew that and Tomcats. He said that the Super Hornet has a lot of good attributes but you are not running from anybody in that thing.