Tolkien Plus

[Sam]

Everyone knows JRR Tolkien. Creator of the Arda legendarium which contains, among other things, one of the most popular books of the twentieth century, the Lord of the Rings. One striking thing about him is that, despite working on the legendarium for the best part of sixty years - producing enough to fill a room - relatively little was published in his lifetime.

Let’s change that. Let’s make Tolkien more inclined to finish things, more focused on publishing – and roughly an order of magnitude more productive.

There will be very little difference at first. Tolkien’s academic career continues roughly as in otl. The Book of Lost Tales is completed, but fails to find a publisher. Tolkien writes reams of poetry in the twenties, including complete versions of the Lay of Leithian and the Children of Hurin. Some of it is published, in obscure journals. Things really begin to diverge in the late twenties, when Tolkien finds a blank sheet of paper, and writes on it the words "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."

Inspired, he finishes The Hobbit in five months, and the story is published in 1930, by Allen & Unwin, and is greeted with some degree of popularity. Tolkien immediately begins work on a sequel, the Lord of the Rings, completed in eighteen months in a form comparable to otl, with some minor differences - the languages are somewhat less developed, and the appendices a little beefier – which is published in three parts in 1933-4. The work is just as popular as in our world, but tweny years early.

So. Now what? This atl Tolkien has produced his otl major works – and more besides - relatively early in life, with around another thity-five years to do more. What does he do in that time, bearing in mind he is much more focused on actually publishing than the perfectionist we know and love?

 

[Thande]

Everyone knows JRR Tolkien. Creator of the Arda legendarium which contains, among other things, one of the most popular books of the twentieth century, the Lord of the Rings. One striking thing about him is that, despite working on the legendarium for the best part of sixty years - producing enough to fill a room - relatively little was published in his lifetime.

Let’s change that. Let’s make Tolkien more inclined to finish things, more focused on publishing – and roughly an order of magnitude more productive.

There will be very little difference at first. Tolkien’s academic career continues roughly as in otl. The Book of Lost Tales is completed, but fails to find a publisher. Tolkien writes reams of poetry in the twenties, including complete versions of the Lay of Leithian and the Children of Hurin. Some of it is published, in obscure journals. Things really begin to diverge in the late twenties, when Tolkien finds a blank sheet of paper, and writes on it the words "In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit."

Inspired, he finishes The Hobbit in five months, and the story is published in 1930, by Allen & Unwin, and is greeted with some degree of popularity. Tolkien immediately begins work on a sequel, the Lord of the Rings, completed in eighteen months in a form comparable to otl, with some minor differences - the languages are somewhat less developed, and the appendices a little beefier – which is published in three parts in 1933-4. The work is just as popular as in our world, but tweny years early.

So. Now what? This atl Tolkien has produced his otl major works – and more besides - relatively early in life, with around another thity-five years to do more. What does he do in that time, bearing in mind he is much more focused on actually publishing than the perfectionist we know and love?

Your numbers are fairly ASB there (18 months??!), although ironically I was thinking about this just earlier. I'm currently reading The History of the Lord of the Rings, and it's interesting how Tolkien's major problem was that he was writing it in the 1940s and paper was rationed. Most of LOTR was written on the back - or sometimes even on the front! - of exam papers from Oxford that he was marking. If you somehow remove WW2 (or just the paper shortage) and also have Tolkien's job be less demanding at the time, he could probably finish LOTR within two or three years, but it wouldn't be anything like the OTL work. Tolkien's works are like the ultimate application of chaos theory - he kept changing names and events several times within a sentence on the spur of a moment, and it's one case where even I would admit that a butterfly flapping its wings in Australia will probably cause Tolkien to write something wildly different

Trouble is, Tolkien wouldn't really be Tolkien if he focused on actually completing things rather than redrafting endlessly. One reason why his works are so loved is because they have the same solid, 'many layered' feel as reading OTL history, with all the previous rejected versions still sort of present in the background like misrememberings or alternative points of view.

I think a good general WI is The Lost Road being completed and published. Steampunk Númenóreans FTW!

 

[Sam]

Your numbers are fairly ASB there (18 months??!), although ironically I was thinking about this just earlier. I'm currently reading The History of the Lord of the Rings, and it's interesting how Tolkien's major problem was that he was writing it in the 1940s and paper was rationed. Most of LOTR was written on the back - or sometimes even on the front! - of exam papers from Oxford that he was marking. If you somehow remove WW2 (or just the paper shortage) and also have Tolkien's job be less demanding at the time, he could probably finish LOTR within two or three years, but it wouldn't be anything like the OTL work. Tolkien's works are like the ultimate application of chaos theory - he kept changing names and events several times within a sentence on the spur of a moment, and it's one case where even I would admit that a butterfly flapping its wings in Australia will probably cause Tolkien to write something wildly different

Trouble is, Tolkien wouldn't really be Tolkien if he focused on actually completing things rather than redrafting endlessly. One reason why his works are so loved is because they have the same solid, 'many layered' feel as reading OTL history, with all the previous rejected versions still sort of present in the background like misrememberings or alternative points of view.

I think a good general WI is The Lost Road being completed and published. Steampunk Númenóreans FTW!

Fifteen hundred words per night doesn't sound all that ASBatty to me, even with a full time job. I was thinking about placing Tolkien on a far end of the bell curve in terms of imaginative productivity. We may even retain the multilayered feel, at that rate.

With regards to the actual content of LOTR, I could still see it being recognisably the same work, even with completely different details. Assuming that Tolkien made the same choices at the outset, he could easily repeat the same internal logic that led to the general direction of the work in otl. And even if it didn't, a work on similar themes could easily be just as popular as LOTR in our world.

 

[Thande]

Fifteen hundred words per night doesn't sound all that ASBatty to me, even with a full time job. I was thinking about placing Tolkien on a far end of the bell curve in terms of imaginative productivity. We may even retain the multilayered feel, at that rate.

With regards to the actual content of LOTR, I could still see it being recognisably the same work, even with completely different details. Assuming that Tolkien made the same choices at the outset, he could easily repeat the same internal logic that led to the general direction of the work in otl. And even if it didn't, a work on similar themes could easily be just as popular as LOTR in our world.

Here are some general examples of the sort of thing I mean - all of these were possibilities considered over about the first two years of writing LOTR, after it locked more or less into position.

1) Strider (originally 'Trotter') is not a Man, but a hobbit. He is Bilbo's nephew Peregrin Boffin, who went adventuring with Gandalf years before and went to Mordor on a spy mission, being captured and tortured by Sauron's servants; it eventually transpires that his feet were destroyed and have been replaced with wooden prosthetics.

2) Treebeard was a Giant who fulfils the same role as Saruman in the later story, an enemy who kept Gandalf imprisoned.

3) On the Bridge of Khazad-dum Gandalf fought a Black Rider or Saruman himself rather than a Balrog.

4) Aragorn's name was changed from Aragorn to Ingold to Elfstone to Ingold to Aragorn, i.e. Tolkien eventually reverted to the first name he chose after a very tortuous path.

5) Aragorn was to have fallen in love (very obviously, using language that would have looked quite out of place in what we think of as LOTR!) with Eowyn and married her after the war, uniting Gondor and Rohan in a dynastic alliance OR he would have loved her but it could never be and he never married;

6) Treebeard was to have broken the Siege of Minas Tirith rather than Aragorn and the black ships;

7) Frodo would have thrown himself into Mount Doom with the Ring, whilst fighting with Gollum.

Given how these ideas twisted and changed so much, I have a feeling that alt-LOTR could be well nigh unrecognisable...

 

[Temujin]

wow, I did not know any of this, thats quite a few changes he made there if Strider had been a Hobbit .

Where do you get your sources? There obviously a lot of things I don't know, I have only read the books and the parts in between. I imagine the story would have been a lot less developed and perhaps not as popular. Even after the publication of the books Tolkien was not fully happy with it and would have made revisions in places.

 

[SRT]

I have the History of the Lord of the Rings or whatever it's called -- the War of the Ring, I think? It's a collected edition of a bunch of old drafts and stuff. I've had it forever but never gotten around to reading it.

 

[Thande]

wow, I did not know any of this, thats quite a few changes he made there if Strider had been a Hobbit .

Where do you get your sources? There obviously a lot of things I don't know, I have only read the books and the parts in between. I imagine the story would have been a lot less developed and perhaps not as popular. Even after the publication of the books Tolkien was not fully happy with it and would have made revisions in places.

The History of Middle-earth, a 13 book series of Tolkien's unpublished work edited by his son Christopher. And Tolkien was never happy or satisfied with anything he ever wrote ever, he was a complete perfectionist. He was planning to re-edit the Lord of the Rings again to spell Orcs with a K and change their origins when he died, for instance. If he'd been an immortal, he'd still be editing and changing things by the heat death of the universe

I have the History of the Lord of the Rings or whatever it's called -- the War of the Ring, I think? It's a collected edition of a bunch of old drafts and stuff. I've had it forever but never gotten around to reading it.

I hadn't read it until now. Difficult, but very interesting - it's like AH for LOTR, as Tolkien developed several ideas that he then decided not to use.

 

[Major Major]

Remember, he's not working in a vacuum. Many of Lord Dunsany's works are out, but he could produce more if there were a popular appeal (the way that fantasies proliferated after LotR began to sell). And E. R. Eddison might buckle down on the Zimiamvia works -- Mistress of Mistresses came out OTL in 1935, if he put himself to it we might then see a complete Mezentian Gate.

And across the Atlantic, H. P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and Robert E. Howard were all producing. Perhaps REH might have had reason enough not to kill himself, and still be doing the occasional Conan story amid his humorous westerns.

James Branch Cabell has wound up the Biography of Manuel but only just begun The Nightmare Has Triplets. More and varied Cabell . . .

And what happens if they correspond with JRRT?

 

[Sam]

Here are some general examples of the sort of thing I mean - all of these were possibilities considered over about the first two years of writing LOTR, after it locked more or less into position.

1) Strider (originally 'Trotter') is not a Man, but a hobbit. He is Bilbo's nephew Peregrin Boffin, who went adventuring with Gandalf years before and went to Mordor on a spy mission, being captured and tortured by Sauron's servants; it eventually transpires that his feet were destroyed and have been replaced with wooden prosthetics.

2) Treebeard was a Giant who fulfils the same role as Saruman in the later story, an enemy who kept Gandalf imprisoned.

3) On the Bridge of Khazad-dum Gandalf fought a Black Rider or Saruman himself rather than a Balrog.

4) Aragorn's name was changed from Aragorn to Ingold to Elfstone to Ingold to Aragorn, i.e. Tolkien eventually reverted to the first name he chose after a very tortuous path.

5) Aragorn was to have fallen in love (very obviously, using language that would have looked quite out of place in what we think of as LOTR!) with Eowyn and married her after the war, uniting Gondor and Rohan in a dynastic alliance OR he would have loved her but it could never be and he never married;

6) Treebeard was to have broken the Siege of Minas Tirith rather than Aragorn and the black ships;

7) Frodo would have thrown himself into Mount Doom with the Ring, whilst fighting with Gollum.

Given how these ideas twisted and changed so much, I have a feeling that alt-LOTR could be well nigh unrecognisable...

I certainly see where you're coming from - and freely admit you might be right - but really, most of the possibilities laid out above would have, in my opinion, led to a worse book, and I think Tolkien would recognise this as he was working on the book, and would repeat many of the choices he made in our world, simply making them faster. And even if he didn't, the premise of the POD is that he would be making equally good choices, but quicker, leading, presumably, to a book just as popular in the ATL.

Anyway, this is leading away from the main idea I had for this scenario, which is, essentialy, "what would Tolkien have produced if he had written several thousand eventually-published words a night from the late twenties to the early seventies, assuming he doesn't lose the qualities that made him popular, such as the solid, multi-layered feeling?". Either The Lost Road
or The Notion Club Papers, for example. Perhaps a version of the Silmarillion. But what else?

Incidentially, what happens to Tolkiens invented languages in this world? Do we see final forms of Quenya and Sindarin fleshed out as real languages, with vocabularies of five to ten thousand each? Do we see a similar development for Khuzdul and Adunaic? What impact does this have on the conlang movement.

Remember, he's not working in a vacuum. Many of Lord Dunsany's works are out, but he could produce more if there were a popular appeal (the way that fantasies proliferated after LotR began to sell). And E. R. Eddison might buckle down on the Zimiamvia works -- Mistress of Mistresses came out OTL in 1935, if he put himself to it we might then see a complete Mezentian Gate.

And across the Atlantic, H. P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and Robert E. Howard were all producing. Perhaps REH might have had reason enough not to kill himself, and still be doing the occasional Conan story amid his humorous westerns.

James Branch Cabell has wound up the Biography of Manuel but only just begun The Nightmare Has Triplets. More and varied Cabell . . .

And what happens if they correspond with JRRT?

Interesting possibilities all. Would this bring forward the great fantasy boom by twenty years, you think, or is the zeitgeist wrong? On the one hand, you have alt-LOTR. On the other, this is still a pro-science era, without the disillusionment of the seventies. It could go either way, really, IMO.

 

[Thande]

Remember, he's not working in a vacuum. Many of Lord Dunsany's works are out, but he could produce more if there were a popular appeal (the way that fantasies proliferated after LotR began to sell). And E. R. Eddison might buckle down on the Zimiamvia works -- Mistress of Mistresses came out OTL in 1935, if he put himself to it we might then see a complete Mezentian Gate.

And across the Atlantic, H. P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, and Robert E. Howard were all producing. Perhaps REH might have had reason enough not to kill himself, and still be doing the occasional Conan story amid his humorous westerns.

James Branch Cabell has wound up the Biography of Manuel but only just begun The Nightmare Has Triplets. More and varied Cabell . . .

And what happens if they correspond with JRRT?

Someone once told me that Tolkien had correspondence with L Sprague de Camp, although I'm not sure if that's true or not.

 

[Major Major]

Someone once told me that Tolkien had correspondence with L Sprague de Camp, although I'm not sure if that's true or not.

They met in the sixties. De Camp described it in his Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers. One item he quoted with some pleasure was that Tolkien confessed to "rather liking" the Conan stories.

Now what if REH had written to Oxford U. about some derivations of old words . . .

 

[Thande]

They met in the sixties. De Camp described it in his Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers. One item he quoted with some pleasure was that Tolkien confessed to "rather liking" the Conan stories.

Now what if REH had written to Oxford U. about some derivations of old words . . .

I'm not familiar enough with REH's work to speculate on that myself.

If we want a larger published output for Tolkien as Sam wanted, I think the most plausible option is for more 'Hobbit'-style stories to be written, with less of a background from the Silmarillion mythology than LOTR had. Although some version of his Atlantis story, either The Lost Road or The Notion Club Papers, would also work.