Tolbiac Frankish Defeat an attempt to a timeline.

496- The Battle of Tolbiac,
The Franks are utterly destroyed by the Allemani tribes at the battle of Tolbiac. Clovis is killed by an arrow.

The Frankish kingdom falls into several kingdoms divided by Clovis sons,
Theuderik, Chilebert, Chlodomer and Chlotarius. (OTL they got bigger regions now they have a much smaller kingdom to divide wich will lead to infighting)

Clovis wife Chlotilde flees to the Bishop of Rheims.

497-
2 of Clovis sons Theuderik and Chlodomer convert to Arian Christianity. The other 2 stay pagan an they start a war with Theuderik and Chlodomer.

Meanwhile the Visigoths who saw the Frankish weakness and infighting march north.

497-
The Arian Burgundians march to the North to support Theiderik and Chlodomer.

498-
A large battle occurs between the Arian Christians and the Pagans. The Arians win through a miracle Chlodomer calls upon god which gives a morale boost to its troops and allies. This victory weakens the Visigoths and destroys the Pagan allies of the Visigoths. Theuderik and Chlodomer celebrate the victory only to engage into war with eachother within 2 months.

499-
Chlodomer defeats his brother Theuderik during the siege of his capital city Liege/Luik. Later that day Theuderik gets executed together with his family and nobles that didnt submitted to Chlodomer. A formal alliancie is established between the Franks under Chlodomer and the Burgundians.

500-
A new century begins. The Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great sees the weakness of the Visigothic Kingdom and starts a war wich will last for 5 years.
 
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Islamo-Arianism actually they both do not see their prophet as a god like being but as a human ;) Maybe a celtic christianity in Ireland which will spread through the british islands and maybe Scandinavia :eek:;):) It would give a nice map :)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Islamo-Arianism actually they both do not see their prophet as a god like being but as a human ;) Maybe a celtic christianity in Ireland which will spread through the british islands and maybe Scandinavia :eek:;):) It would give a nice map :)

I have thought about a Arian conversion to Islam earlier, and while there's rather clear theological similarities, I doubt they will convert. Islam is a religion of nomads and merchants, the Arian was a settled warrior aristocraty, which ruled over a large segment of Catholics and Donatist. But we could see them adopt some of Islams pragmatic ideas like the whole "People of the Book", which would transform western society, and likely result in a permanent Arian present in Gaul (maybe only the southen part), Italy, Iberia and maybe North Africa. Celtic Christianity will become less likely to spread without the support the received from the Franks in OTL (even through it still died out), so it will likely stay on the British Islands, while Scandinavian and Europe east of Rhine will either convert to Arianism, stay Pagan or be converted to Othodocy through the Rus.
 
I have thought about a Arian conversion to Islam earlier, and while there's rather clear theological similarities, I doubt they will convert. Islam is a religion of nomads and merchants, the Arian was a settled warrior aristocraty, which ruled over a large segment of Catholics and Donatist. But we could see them adopt some of Islams pragmatic ideas like the whole "People of the Book", which would transform western society, and likely result in a permanent Arian present in Gaul (maybe only the southen part), Italy, Iberia and maybe North Africa. Celtic Christianity will become less likely to spread without the support the received from the Franks in OTL (even through it still died out), so it will likely stay on the British Islands, while Scandinavian and Europe east of Rhine will either convert to Arianism, stay Pagan or be converted to Othodocy through the Rus.


Lets say the ''Moors'' advance until the rhine in the west and taking Byzantium with them? But for the west, if the nobles convert the rest would need to accept the Djimmi status. Wich would lead to a lot of converts eventually.


Although i might not be right on everything i will post im happy someone reacted and give critics :)
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Lets say the ''Moors'' advance until the rhine in the west and taking Byzantium with them? But for the west, if the nobles convert the rest would need to accept the Djimmi status. Wich would lead to a lot of converts eventually.


Although i might not be right on everything i will post im happy someone reacted and give critics :)

The Muslims advanced as far as they could, their military doctrine wouldn't work north of the Pyrenes*. Beside I doubt the nobles would convert, they had fought conversion to Catholism for centuries, why should they convert to the religion of some nomadic hillbillies.

*They didn't even work in Northen Spain, and they had to use locals to conquer Westen North Africa and South Spain.
 
The Muslims advanced as far as they could, their military doctrine wouldn't work north of the Pyrenes*. Beside I doubt the nobles would convert, they had fought conversion to Catholism for centuries, why should they convert to the religion of some nomadic hillbillies.

*They didn't even work in Northen Spain, and they had to use locals to conquer Westen North Africa and South Spain.

Because the Nomadic hillbillies would kill them? And because their armies were destroyed? The conversion to christianity was different in the OTL then the conversion to Islam wasnt it?

* So what does it matter there all muslim and devoted to expand their faith. Northern Spain... well i think in the early stages it was just because there wasnt any reason to destroy those small kingdoms who consisted of 200 square miles in mountaineous terrain.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Because the Nomadic hillbillies would kill them? And because their armies were destroyed? The conversion to christianity was different in the OTL then the conversion to Islam wasnt it?

* So what does it matter there all muslim and devoted to expand their faith. Northern Spain... well i think in the early stages it was just because there wasnt any reason to destroy those small kingdoms who consisted of 200 square miles in mountaineous terrain.

The problem is that if the Arabs (and Berbers) is strong enough to force a conversion down over them, they don't need to, they will just conquer them. Of course in case of succesful Islamic conquest, the local Arian will likely just convert and be assimilated by the Arabs, which mean all trace of them and their culture will likely disappear. If you look at early Islam only nomadic societies* and subject populations converted to Islam.
 

Philip

Donor
497-
The Arian Burgundians march to the North to support Theiderik and Chlodomer.

You need to have the Burgundians unite first. At that time they were embroiled in a civil war.

500-
A new century begins. The Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great sees the weakness of the Visigothic Kingdom and starts a war wich will last for 5 years.

In 494 Theodoric formed an alliance with the Visigoths. His daughter Theodegotha was married to the Visigothic king, Alaric II. I don't see him leading an invasion against a kingdom his grandson will rule.
 
I can't help thinking that SOMEONE will think of converting to Catholicism and getting the support of the pope and the (largely Catholic) population. If the Franks don't do it, some one else will.
 

Philip

Donor
I can't help thinking that SOMEONE will think of converting to Catholicism and getting the support of the pope and the (largely Catholic) population. If the Franks don't do it, some one else will.

It has to be a conversion from paganism to Catholic Christianity. If one of the Arian kings converts, he will likely be deposed. Arianism was one of the means the Germanics used to keep themselves separate from their subjects.
 
496- The Battle of Tolbiac,
The Franks are utterly destroyed by the Allemani tribes at the battle of Tolbiac. Clovis is killed by an arrow.

The Frankish kingdom falls into several kingdoms divided by Clovis sons,
Theuderik, Chilebert, Chlodomer and Chlotarius. (OTL they got bigger regions now they have a much smaller kingdom to divide wich will lead to infighting)

Clovis wife Chlotilde flees to the Bishop of Rheims.

Okay. So you think the brothers' general ability to get along was due to their having relatively large regions to rule, thus they didn't feud over resources?

And in this TL that cooperation doesn't occur?

497-
2 of Clovis sons Theuderik and Chlodomer convert to Arian Christianity. The other 2 stay pagan an they start a war with Theuderik and Chlodomer.

Meanwhile the Visigoths who saw the Frankish weakness and infighting march north.

Why do the sons suddenly convert? Arianism had been the heresy of choice for the other Germanic tribes, but they converted prior to invading the Roman Empire. Once inside the Empire it became clear that the choice was not an especially good one, since the population was all orthodox (Nicean) Christian.

That was why Clovis converted to orthodox Christianity, it made it far easier to rule the Roman populace. The Arian Goths in Italy and Spain had to deal with constant unrest due to religious differences with the general population.

Clovis had not yet gone after the Visigoths, so they still held the province of Aquitanie. They showed no intention to go further afield than that, so why do that advance north now?

Alaric II attempted to maintain good relations with the Franks, and it was Clovis who initiated hostilies on the pretext of Alaric's Arian heresy. So basically, I don't see why Alaric would now initiate offensive action.

497-
The Arian Burgundians march to the North to support Theiderik and Chlodomer.

498-
A large battle occurs between the Arian Christians and the Pagans. The Arians win through a miracle Chlodomer calls upon god which gives a morale boost to its troops and allies. This victory weakens the Visigoths and destroys the Pagan allies of the Visigoths. Theuderik and Chlodomer celebrate the victory only to engage into war with eachother within 2 months.

Is there a reason they are mindlessly destroying each other?

499-
Chlodomer defeats his brother Theuderik during the siege of his capital city Liege/Luik. Later that day Theuderik gets executed together with his family and nobles that didn't submitted to Chlodomer. A formal alliane is established between the Franks under Chlodomer and the Burgundians.

So Chlodomer, after murdering the entire rest of his family (who in OTL he got along alright with), is now the King of all the Franks? And he needs an alliance with the Burgundians why?

500-
A new century begins. The Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great sees the weakness of the Visigothic Kingdom and starts a war wich will last for 5 years.

Ah. You realize that Theodoric the Great's daughter was married to Alaric II, the King of the Visigoths, and one of his two grandsons was Alaric II's son. And that Theodoric the Great was able to run the Germanic tribes after he took Italy by establishing a series of marriage alliances with almost every tribe in the former Western Roman Empire.
 
Okay. So you think the brothers' general ability to get along was due to their having relatively large regions to rule, thus they didn't feud over resources?

And in this TL that cooperation doesn't occur?.

Well they also tended to kill relatives if it would give them more power so yes.

Why do the sons suddenly convert? Arianism had been the heresy of choice for the other Germanic tribes, but they converted prior to invading the Roman Empire. Once inside the Empire it became clear that the choice was not an especially good one, since the population was all orthodox (Nicean) Christian..

Because all the other Germanic kingdoms are Arian. Do you think they would still convert to the Orthodox stream? It did not helped their father in his battle... assuming he was calling to Orthodox God and not Arian God ;)

That was why Clovis converted to orthodox Christianity, it made it far easier to rule the Roman populace. The Arian Goths in Italy and Spain had to deal with constant unrest due to religious differences with the general population..

Well i wont oppose that.

Clovis had not yet gone after the Visigoths, so they still held the province of Aquitanie. They showed no intention to go further afield than that, so why do that advance north now?.

To support their allies and to attempt to destroy/weaken the Franks now they are quite weak due to infighting?

Alaric II attempted to maintain good relations with the Franks, and it was Clovis who initiated hostilies on the pretext of Alaric's Arian heresy. So basically, I don't see why Alaric would now initiate offensive action..



So Chlodomer, after murdering the entire rest of his family (who in OTL he got along alright with), is now the King of all the Franks? And he needs an alliance with the Burgundians why?.

As a reward for their services? Or to use them as allies in defeatin other Burgundian tribes? Or do you consider that thats to smart for a German.
 

Philip

Donor
Well they also tended to kill relatives if it would give them more power so yes.

OTL, they didn't kill one another for power. They cooperated in ruling the kingdom.

Because all the other Germanic kingdoms are Arian.

Or pagan. Still, this does not explain why they didn't converted to the Nicene faith. Were they just following the crowd?

Do you think they would still convert to the Orthodox stream?

It makes more sense. At least that way they buy some goodwill from their Roman subjects.

It did not helped their father in his battle... assuming he was calling to Orthodox God and not Arian God

Two problems: First, Clovis converted after the battle OTL. Second, I don't think the Arian and Nicene Christians would say they worshiped different Gods.

To support their allies and to attempt to destroy/weaken the Franks now they are quite weak due to infighting?

More likely they would consolidate their power and seek other alliances while the Franks flail about in disarray.

As a reward for their services? Or to use them as allies in defeatin other Burgundian tribes?

Alliances are for equals. A consolidated Frank kingdom is more likely to seek to dominate the Burgundians, especially if the Burgundians are disunited.
 
Well they also tended to kill relatives if it would give them more power so yes.

But when did these brothers kill relatives?

Because all the other Germanic kingdoms are Arian. Do you think they would still convert to the Orthodox stream? It did not helped their father in his battle... assuming he was calling to Orthodox God and not Arian God ;)

The whole conversion due to victory in battle was probably played up by later historians who were not actually involved in the battle. The exact date is even disputed. And as I stated before, if you look at when the other tribes converted it was prior to their invasion of the West, when they were living outside the borders of the Eastern Empire and a series of Eastern Emperors embraced the Arian heresy. At the time, the Orthodox Church had reasserted itself, and there was none of that heretical foolery tolerated in Constantinople. It was only the heretic Goths and Vandals who embraced Arianism, and the Burgundians were divided according to which version (orthodox or arian) of christianity they followed.

To support their allies and to attempt to destroy/weaken the Franks now they are quite weak due to infighting?

But who were the Visigoths allied to, and why would they want the relative backwaters that the Franks occupied. The Visigoths had the choice bits of Gaul, and all of Hispania, and they had little need (or ability) to expand further.

As a reward for their services? Or to use them as allies in defeatin other Burgundian tribes? Or do you consider that thats to smart for a German.

If the Frankish king is as treacherous with his family as you have him, then I wouldn't want to be a weaker ally of his. The Franks will probably go after the Burgundians with a vengeance, which will provoke Theodoric of the Ostrogoths to counter them.
 
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