Tojo's Alaskan Alternative
- Thread starter mailinutile2
- Start date
Bill Cameron
Banned
I'd do it If I knew where Balikpapan was
Good god.... You have to be joking...
You wanted to know the difference in distances between a Japan-to-Alaska voyage and a Japan-to-Borneo voyage, so I gave you the distances you asked for.
Seeing as Anchorage is a port city in Alaska, wouldn't it then follow that Balikpapan is a port city in Borneo?
Is there some sort of language barrier at work here? You seem to write English very well.
Borneo passes an entire series of other islands, all of them either in Japanese hands or intended to be shortly after the war began. The trip to Alaska is a much longer one with no ports once you've left Japan.
Conditions in Borneo are vastly more benign than in Alaska and the supply difference between being able to scrounge most of the basics on the spot and being utterly dependent on supplies shipped in is massive.
Which did not prevent many of tens of thousands of Japanese from starving to death in climates far more benign than Alaska during the war once Japanese shipping was crippled. Hardly reassuring.
In the unlikely event that the oil fields were not only discovered decades before WWII but, for some most implausible reason, the decision was made to exploit these commercially non-viable fields(costs being much higher than other existing deposits) so much earlier we would be dealing with a much more heavily populated and more valuable Alaska, therefore a much more heavily defended Alaska, which means any assumptions of a Japanese attack based on existing data would be pretty much out the window.
Of course, the Japanese hope was that the US would not fight to the finish over European colonies and they can not possibly have that hope over US soil.
Conditions in Borneo are vastly more benign than in Alaska and the supply difference between being able to scrounge most of the basics on the spot and being utterly dependent on supplies shipped in is massive.
Which did not prevent many of tens of thousands of Japanese from starving to death in climates far more benign than Alaska during the war once Japanese shipping was crippled. Hardly reassuring.
In the unlikely event that the oil fields were not only discovered decades before WWII but, for some most implausible reason, the decision was made to exploit these commercially non-viable fields(costs being much higher than other existing deposits) so much earlier we would be dealing with a much more heavily populated and more valuable Alaska, therefore a much more heavily defended Alaska, which means any assumptions of a Japanese attack based on existing data would be pretty much out the window.
Of course, the Japanese hope was that the US would not fight to the finish over European colonies and they can not possibly have that hope over US soil.
I agree: also from the first post
Also Alaska would probably be more strongly garrisoned than in OTL
Thus I was asking if someone had information about how strong the alaskan garrison was
Borneo isn't exactly Rhode island: one end is pretty far from the other.
had you told port moresby, I'd have a rough Idea of where it is , but I have no clues as Balikpapan
The actual garrison or the garrison which would have existed if Alaskan oil was being produced on a large scale? Basing the prospects of a Japanese invasion from an ATL on military data from OTL is not very credible.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Mailinutile,
I've actually been to Borneo. Sarawak actually.
Seeing as it's actually on Papua New Guinea and not Borneo, you've no clue about Port Moresby either.
I'm putting this all down to language difficulties.
Bill
Does someone have any hints on how large was the alskan garrison OTL?
because I have not
I could have said Hong Kong or Singapore, or even Darwin; it was just an example.
however, where is it? northern coast?
Balikpapan is where the oil is.
Just as an aside...
As Bill noted, this is a fairly common WI, and much of it has been hashed out in earlier threads.
The total Japanese force available for the entire December 1941 offensive was quite small, totally well under 5 divisions, with units doing double or triple duty. As an example the Special Army brigade (the South Seas Detachment) that took Guam was used a few weeks later to take Rabaul, while IJN Special Naval Landing Forces (SNLF Navy paratroopers) used in the Philippines were later in the month of December used in the DEI.
Japan did the entire attack into the South on a shoestring. They gambled, correctly as it turned out, that the American and British forces would be unprepared. They also gambled, incorrectly as events proved, that the Americans and British would accept the change in circumstances as permanent or at least not attempt to strike back a Japan with any sense of vigor.
mailinutile2, it's irrelevant because Japan has literally nothing to gain by invading our Alaska with no oil resources and an Alaska miraculously with the oil developed generations ahead of schedule will be a very different place.
I agree that without oil wells there would be not point to invade alaska: that is actually the POD.
Now if you tell me that alaskan oil is actually too deep to be extracted in the '40, then it turn ASB.
However the main point remains:
the main problem of japan OTL was that it had 3 diverging lines of operations: how would it perform with just 2?
Total massacre and waste of logistics and resources, supply lines too long, srategic value minimal, even with the oil discoveries, let alone it's one thing to take land, let alone keep it. Oh, yeah and let's not forget; it's bloody ALASKA, you know where its COLD ALL THE EFFING TIME, oh and yes, Canada is right next door, and you can be quite sure we would be ready, willing and able to assist, hell, King might even be able to get some use from his "Zombie Divisions" with the caveat being that they aren't going to Europe, after all. So, in conclusion, in a word...no.
Since no nation was exploiting such deposits and there was no reason to as other existing deposits were far less costly it is ASB.
Continuing the ASB...it won't be a two-pronged war as the invasion of Alaska ensures war with Canada, therefore the UK, Australia, New Zealand...and it won't be a long war as Japan has apparently gone insane as a nation and is starting a war while facing total collapse due to lack of oil and has no plan to change that lack. Of course, this war also involves Japan facing US land and air power on a much vaster scale without much of the Japanese air force and navy and at the end of an even longer and weaker supply line.
Continuing the ASB...it won't be a two-pronged war as the invasion of Alaska ensures war with Canada, therefore the UK, Australia, New Zealand...and it won't be a long war as Japan has apparently gone insane as a nation and is starting a war while facing total collapse due to lack of oil and has no plan to change that lack. Of course, this war also involves Japan facing US land and air power on a much vaster scale without much of the Japanese air force and navy and at the end of an even longer and weaker supply line.
Caspian
Banned
Alaska Defense Command on December 8 consisted of:
- 4 infantry regiments, 1 infantry battalion
- 2 artillery battalions
- 1 engineer battalion, 1 engineer company
- 1 armored company
- 2 anti-aircraft regiments, 2 anti-aircraft battalions
- 1 coastal artillery regiment
- Headquarters, maintenance, and transport units
- 20 P-36 fighters
- 12 B-18A bombers
- Various headquarters, maintenance, and support staff
- 1 gunboat
- 3 patrol cutters
- 3 submarine chasers
I got all this from www.neihorster.orbat.com - hopefully this is accurate.
That's a surprisingly large number of troops. Anyone who wants to correct this, please do, as I'm not sure I read this correctly.
I'd also like to align myself with those who are arguing that this invasion would be completely foolhardy, if not physically impossible, for the Japanese and that the POD is basically impossible. Japan might as well invade California.
- 4 infantry regiments, 1 infantry battalion
- 2 artillery battalions
- 1 engineer battalion, 1 engineer company
- 1 armored company
- 2 anti-aircraft regiments, 2 anti-aircraft battalions
- 1 coastal artillery regiment
- Headquarters, maintenance, and transport units
- 20 P-36 fighters
- 12 B-18A bombers
- Various headquarters, maintenance, and support staff
- 1 gunboat
- 3 patrol cutters
- 3 submarine chasers
I got all this from www.neihorster.orbat.com - hopefully this is accurate.
That's a surprisingly large number of troops. Anyone who wants to correct this, please do, as I'm not sure I read this correctly.
I'd also like to align myself with those who are arguing that this invasion would be completely foolhardy, if not physically impossible, for the Japanese and that the POD is basically impossible. Japan might as well invade California.
Caspian
Banned
Japan will also burn an awful lot of fuel to send ships to Alaska, and an awful lot of fuel shipping oil back to Japan (impossible, as has been stated, but just for the sake of my point). If they also have the good sense to implement a convoy system, with escorts, they'll burn even more fuel.
End of the war in 6 months, due to Japanese ships having to use sails and oars, while Japanese carriers use kites with small bombs attached rather than planes, all courtesy of complete lack of fuel?
End of the war in 6 months, due to Japanese ships having to use sails and oars, while Japanese carriers use kites with small bombs attached rather than planes, all courtesy of complete lack of fuel?
Teleology
Banned
Not to sound stupid, but isn't there an off chance that if Japan didn't directly attack US territory that they could get away with sniping European colonies like Borneo?
I know they attacked Pearl Harbor as a pre-emptive measure to try to discourage American intervention, but I think that in hindsight they'd have a much better chance if they just skirted around the Phillipines and US shipping.
I know they attacked Pearl Harbor as a pre-emptive measure to try to discourage American intervention, but I think that in hindsight they'd have a much better chance if they just skirted around the Phillipines and US shipping.
Caspian
Banned
Japanese shipping is then vulnerable to American attacks from the Philippines, and pretty soon American forces there will be far too strong to successfully attack. It would have been far too risky for the Japanese to not attack the United States if they want to acquire South-East Asia.
The ideal solution was, of course, to leave China, but that certainly wasn't going to happen.
Cook
Banned
Pretty much the same reason the north of Australia was so empty during World War Two and Japanese fantasies of invading Australia were down the East Coast and not into the North West to exploit the massive mineral wealth that no-one knew was there.
Cook
Banned
The Japanese troops were expected to largely live off the land in all their campaigns in South East Asia, it allowed them to move faster without a large logistics train following but their resulting high casualty rate due to malnutrition and disease was a result.