To what extent could Japan become Catholic?

The printing press will come much sooner to Japan.

The 70% non-Catholic majority will have anti-Catholic sentiments.

So in your Portuguese-wank TL, this TL’s Japanese Catholics will have very strong ties to Lisbon.
 
Outside of Japan, in my TTL universe the Ryukyu Kigndom will be a Portuguese protectorate (most likely after the Ming collapse) and ITTL the Ryukyuan people will also be Catholics, but they will be subject to being a Portuguese colony (and eventually an overseas province) by the 18th century and they will become more influenced by Portugal (they'll end up becoming the East Asian analogue to Goan Catholics), through cuisine, foreign loanwords, customs, religion, and a Latin alphabet for the Okinawan language to distinguish them from the Japanese.
 
ITTL, I think that commerce would increase within Japan, due to the usage of better ships and the entrance of Dutch ideas on stocks. I feel that TTL Japan, while not a wank great power that takes over Asia, will be internally wealthier sightly more technologically advanced (plus enlightenment values coming earlier), but filled with more religious sectarianism and overall instability. But being open will mean that Japan does not stagnate like it did in OTL.
 
Sendai can be the center of Japanese Catholicism east of Kyoto. I think in Tohoku, Hokkaido and anything north of that, the Catholics of those areas will view Sendai Catholic institutions very highly.

If Date Masamune sponsors religious tolerance and coexistence, then Tohoku (and Hokkaido) might be a much more communally harmonious region than Kyushu, where the Catholic Otomo and Buddhist Shimazu clash and where riots occur in certain villages frequently.


Uesugi Kenshin can easily serve as a hero for Japanese Buddhists. How will Shintoism react to this conflict between Buddhism and Catholicism?
 
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Outside of Japan, in my TTL universe the Ryukyu Kigndom will be a Portuguese protectorate (most likely after the Ming collapse) and ITTL the Ryukyuan people will also be Catholics, but they will be subject to being a Portuguese colony (and eventually an overseas province) by the 18th century and they will become more influenced by Portugal (they'll end up becoming the East Asian analogue to Goan Catholics), through cuisine, foreign loanwords, customs, religion, and a Latin alphabet for the Okinawan language to distinguish them from the Japanese.


Catholic Okinawa!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
japan-religion-png.491950


Thank you so much @BBadolato. I love maps, and this map is perfect. :)




@Monter, what are your thoughts? If we have a Japan that is 30% more Catholic, with more exposure to western technology, ideas, commerce and trade throughout the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, where do you see Japan developing? Same question to you @BBadolato (and of course also @Gintoki Sakata).




How would the Imperial family respond? How would Shintoism respond to this new dynamic?
 
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A few ideas:

* one of the reasons cited for persecuting Catholics in Japan was their denial of the Emperor's divinity. In a more Catholic Japan, how's that dealt with?
* Sakoku might not even exist ITTL. In other words, Japan will not pull a Meiji since it won't be a hermit realm.
* Culinary crosspollination will be even more widespread ITTL - the Portuguese helped name tempura after all.
 
A few ideas:

* one of the reasons cited for persecuting Catholics in Japan was their denial of the Emperor's divinity. In a more Catholic Japan, how's that dealt with?
* Sakoku might not even exist ITTL. In other words, Japan will not pull a Meiji since it won't be a hermit realm.
* Culinary crosspollination will be even more widespread ITTL - the Portuguese helped name tempura after all.

Vocabulary certainly will have some slight variations, specifically loanwords and words used to describe religious Catholic objects and events.
 
Such as the Ikko Ikki in Kaga, right?

The Ikko Ikki were based in Ishiyama Honganji on what would be modern-day Osaka, Kaga was just a province they managed to exert control over. But there were other monasteries such as Mt Hiei, which Nobunaga infamously let all of the inhabitants burn to death.

Sendai can be the center of Japanese Catholicism east of Kyoto. I think in Tohoku, Hokkaido and anything north of that, the Catholics of those areas will view Sendai Catholic institutions very highly.

If Date Masamune sponsors religious tolerance and coexistence, then Hokkaido might be a much more communally harmonious region than Kyushu, where the Catholic Otomo and Buddhist Shimazu clash and where riots occur in certain villages frequently.


Uesugi Kenshin can easily serve as a hero for Japanese Buddhists. How will Shintoism react to this conflict between Buddhism and Catholicism?

Religious clashes depend more on how the Japanese landlords conduct themselves and what their feudal overlords do. Again you have to answer the question of what does Japan this look like on a political level. Was unification achieved, does it have the same issues of the Tokugawa or Toyotomi, what happened to the political situation in the lead up to unification?

Buddhism at least in the Sengoku was more limited to shrines and teaching varying by each lord. For example, Imagawa Yoshimoto was supposed to go a Tendai Monastery, while Matsunaga Hisahide was a Nichiren Buddhist. Shintoism was often tied with Buddhist traditions, for example the Suwa clan in Shinano were Buddhists who control hereditarily tended the shrine of Lake Suwa and considered descendants of the patron spirit Takeminakata. You are not going to get certain figures as out and out heroes, considering Kenshin had his own problems with Sohei unless Matsunaga Hisahide of all peoples becomes some later day figure in the struggle against Catholics and not a brazenly opportunistic bastard that he really was.

Considering that Catholicism seems to be willing to take a less tolerant stance of divinity in all things, or incorporating "saints" things are going to be bad. It's why I can see a more protestant-minded Church of Japan springing up than out and out Catholicism. Only because I'm not sure if any examples of a version of Catholicism having to be built with the possibility of strong accommodation in mind exist, considering most if not all new Catholic outside nations arose out of former colonies, save maybe the Kindom of Kongo.
 
Instead of "Meri Kurisumasu" (メリークリスマス) my TTL way for the Japanese Catholics to say "Merry Christmas" is "Fuerizu Nataru" (フェリズ ナタル) which is based on the Portuguese "Feliz Natal"
 
The Ikko Ikki were based in Ishiyama Honganji on what would be modern-day Osaka, Kaga was just a province they managed to exert control over. But there were other monasteries such as Mt Hiei, which Nobunaga infamously let all of the inhabitants burn to death.

Ah yes, the damned Demon King.


Again you have to answer the question of what does Japan this look like on a political level. Was unification achieved, does it have the same issues of the Tokugawa or Toyotomi, what happened to the political situation in the lead up to unification?


I think the best way for it to occur would either Oda survive Mitsuhide's treachery and unify Japan (especially if a Catholic aide helps Nobunaga survive), or if another Daimyo comes to power (preferably from the Kansai region) and is supported by the Otomo, Ouchi, Date and other Catholic clans.

I don't think the Date could have unified Japan, but I could be dead wrong.
 
Instead of "Meri Kurisumasu" (メリークリスマス) my TTL way for the Japanese Catholics to say "Merry Christmas" is "Fuerizu Nataru" (フェリズ ナタル) which is based on the Portuguese "Feliz Natal"

Or based on the Spanish Feliz Navidad. We know it will have an Iberian root, due to Francis Xavier and the Jesuits.
 
It's why I can see a more protestant-minded Church of Japan springing up than out and out Catholicism. Only because I'm not sure if any examples of a version of Catholicism having to be built with the possibility of strong accommodation in mind exist, considering most if not all new Catholic outside nations arose out of former colonies, save maybe the Kindom of Kongo.

A Protestant Japan would be quite interesting too, especially given the lack of Papal authority Protestantism ascribes. But, the intolerance of idolatry is much higher in Calvinist traditions than in Catholic traditions. And unless the Emperor and/or the Shogun strongly supports such a religion, it would merely be a rival of the more entrenched Catholic Church and they would proceed to extinguish each other.
 
The funny thing, of course, is that Christianity has a long history of endorsing various versions of a "divine right to kingship," including, prominently, in this very era. It would be fairly easily solved by a workaround such as: The Emperors may not have been of divine descent, but they were of divine endorsement, recasting the descent from the sun kami as being some kind of misremembered message from the angels of God. Basically, it would be recasting the Japanese monarchy as a version of the Davidic kingship for Japan instead of Israel. You could probably come up with some tortured explanation for how the Emperors actually descended from David, who was supposed to predate them by a few centuries, too, just to avoid the question of "Why did God choose two peoples?" and to tie into the obsession with the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel (they're totally the Japanese, guys!).

More broadly, even without something like this the Church's behavior around this time suggests that they would have been totally willing to endorse a divine right to rulership by the Emperor and the Shogun (more in the vein of "they were made kings, so they have a divine right to rule") had they tolerated Church activities in Japan (or, ideally, converted, but I don't think they would insist on that).

Interesting. Surely Catholic daimyo won't mind the "give to the lord … give to Caesar".
 
Calvinism also seems to engender a more decentralized, more individualistic interpretation of Christianity. Given that conversion seems to be more top-down than from, say, the merchant classes upward, I think it's unlikely Japan goes Calvinist.

One idea I'm thinking of is that the Chinese Rites controversy is decided more decisively in favor of the Jesuits - and you could end up with a Chinese Rite and/or Japanese Rite that has some differences from the Latin Rite, but remains in communion with the Vatican (think Greek Catholic).
 
I'm also curious on how a large Catholic minority will impact Japan's foreign policy, not just with the Europeans (obviously no closed country policy) but with Asian countries such as China and Korea.
 
Perhaps even more piracy during the Ming collapse under a more open Japan with a stronger navy?

With Portugal in a much stronger position in Asia than OTL, and maintaining good relations with the Oda Bakufu, the piracy issue would be quickly resolved.

Here's a pic I can imagine in this TTL world:

19efcf324c7aba7f9367308ef859293f.jpg

Two jetfighters from the Royal Portuguese Air Force fly during a joint Luso-Japanese military exercise in Vila Coutinho Air Base, Overseas Province of Rúchú, 2018 [1]

[1] The red-green markings would be replaced with the royalist blue-white TTL.
 
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