To the Victor, Go the Spoils (Redux): A Plausible Central Powers Victory
- Thread starter TheReformer
- Start date
What great crime did Serbia do to ‘deserve’ to be invaded and dismantled. Not submitting themselves to the Hasburgs really that great of a crime.
Bruh, really? Something like at least 300,000 Serbian civilians died; a combination of starvation, disease, forced labor, and a deliberate campaign of genocide. And that's the conservative estimate. Some go up to 650,000 and even 1 million. In a country with a population of 3.2 million. All for the crime of getting war declared on them because they didn't want to become a puppet state.
And now a substantial portion of that remaining population is living in foreign countries, where they can expect to be forced to give up their culture and very identity at best, or be deported/ethnically cleansed at worst.
And now a substantial portion of that remaining population is living in foreign countries, where they can expect to be forced to give up their culture and very identity at best, or be deported/ethnically cleansed at worst.
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Indeed. The Serbian people certainly did not deserve the depredations they were subject to.
Pasic, Apis et al? A long drop and a short rope in 1903 was the bare minimum a fair and just world would have given them
My lack of sympathy is for Serbia the state, not Serbians the people. Serbia the state's crime was jumping head first into national suicide. They had numerous opportunities to stop poking Austria with a stick. They repeatedly picked fights with larger powers and counted on being saved by Russia if things turned against them, and their ravenous hunger for a 'Yugoslavia' (Aka, Greater Serbia) that virtually no other South Slav really wanted was a delusional collision course with reality that started two world wars and then some, soooo...
Yeah. Serbia the state can choke.
Serbians the people are a different discussion, but this is a work of fiction where the characters are as much the various states themselves as anything else, so no real people were harmed.
….
You do know that in fact the entire Grand retreat happened in real life? With pretty much the exact same situation happening?
“oh it’s just a fictional charecter” dosent cut it.
The whole cycle of events that happened are because of Serbia's actions, yes.
Would something similar to WWI have broken out otherwise? Probably. You don't see me weeping for the OHL or the French Third Republic's militant leaders in Real life for a reason.
@President Earl Warren: And if we were talking about the real Grand Retreat, that would be different discussion. In Real life, even an asshole like Wilson doesn't deserve to end up like he did, because that's a pretty unpleasant thing to happen to anyone. But in this context, I can cheer Wilson suffering more or less what he did IRL.
But we're not talking about what really happened, and again, my comment about a lack of sympathy is wrt to the State Serbia, not the Serbian People.
Serbia accepted all but one demand of an ultimatum intentionally made unacceptable, no sovereign state would ever accept it no matter what because it’d have made them an Austrian puppet in all but name and for a strange reason people like independence. The black hand wasn’t supported by the government, at least by the King from writings but they had a lot of power: after all they had overthrown the last dynasty so you couldn’t go against them. Also they started two world wars? Are they teaching you now that WW2 started over Serbia? Where are you from that this is taught? I have certain guesses but want to make sure but well I am pretty sure it started over Poland. I do believe the Kaiserreich was the lesser evil in WW1 and its victory at worst would be no worse than OTL but its main allies: Austria and the Ottomans, well neither was shy of genocide or ethnic cleansing.
.... WW2 happened because WWI. WWI happened (the way it actually happened) because of Serbia. I didn't say Serbia specifically started WW2.
As for Serbia not accepting the ultimatums, that's not really the issue. Serbia had numerous opportunities before the Death of Franz Ferdinand to stop poking Austria with a stick. Instead, they kept doing that, made zero efforts to even pretend to reign the Black Hand in, and them picking a fight with Austria was well in their pattern of picking fights (see: Balkan Wars).
I'm not endorsing what actually happens ITTL or what actually happened OTL to the Serbian people during WWI (or WWII, or what the Serbians did to others before, after and during these periods either), and I'm getting rather tired of people in this thread seeing a comment directed at the state in a work of fiction and insinuating that I am okay with IRL ethnic cleansing. It's a HUGE leap from what I've said to insinuate that.
EDIT: I've said all I'm going to say on this topic, to continue the conversation more would be pointless and derailing.
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Anyway, glad you all enjoyed the update.
As for the lack of mentioning domestic events in the US etc - these things will be touched on in later updates dedicated to them. They are already planned out and considered though, I just don't like to go over too many parts of the world in one update.
As for the lack of mentioning domestic events in the US etc - these things will be touched on in later updates dedicated to them. They are already planned out and considered though, I just don't like to go over too many parts of the world in one update.
That’s probably smart. Keeping the focus on the treaties makes for a more straightforward narrative then you can move outwards for a broader look at the impacts
That is currently being created, yesCan we get a overall map after all treaties?
At least until another great war, approximately 1950s at least I'd assume.
Bulgaria having the strongest allies sounds like a pretty strong diplomatic way to prevent three minor powers from attacking it. Serbia just lost a massive amount of territory and population, and at this point they're basically as irrelevant as Albania (maybe less so). The territories seized by Bulgaria are quite defensible and the three neighbors now have no land connection. Even if they lost Germany's support Hungary and Bulgaria alone would be enough to stop that alliance in its tracks in all likelihood. I really can't see this Bulgaria falling apart unless it loses a second world war with Germany somehow.
Edit: Grammar
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