To the Victor, Go the Spoils (Redux): A Plausible Central Powers Victory

True. But it depends on what Britain is willing to let Germany get away with. I could see Britain keeping the colonies *and* forcing Germany into a super-weak treaty. After all, really, what is Germany gonna do about it? Boner Law and the Conservatives certainly won't have the grace to not piss Germany off even more than they already have.

I could see the Naval officer corps getting socially and politically eviscerated, a lot of heads rolling. But yes, Germany will be doing everything they can

A super weak treaty won't help France. They're literally broken on the inside, the Freach Haze is what it being call. Losing faith and sheer hopelessness and not having the will to do much of anything.

It could be interesting if Paris just reject a lot of what Boner Law and the Conservatives would try and push and listen to German demands.

France just what a official end of the conflict and be done with a generation lost to the trenches and being defeated two times in a row by the Germans.
 
True. But it depends on what Britain is willing to let Germany get away with. I could see Britain keeping the colonies *and* forcing Germany into a super-weak treaty. After all, really, what is Germany gonna do about it? Boner Law and the Conservatives certainly won't have the grace to not piss Germany off even more than they already have.

I could see the Naval officer corps getting socially and politically eviscerated, a lot of heads rolling. But yes, Germany will be doing everything they can
Kick the old, broken down dog that is post-war France. Intentionally agonizing Germany is setting up Round 2 in the future, and sacrificing future political influence in Europe.
 
A super weak treaty won't help France. They're literally broken on the inside, the Freach Haze is what it being call. Losing faith and sheer hopelessness and not having the will to do much of anything.

It could be interesting if Paris just reject a lot of what Boner Law and the Conservatives would try and push and listen to German demands.

France just what a official end of the conflict and be done with a generation lost to the trenches and being defeated two times in a row by the Germans.
Well, yeah, France is screwed in the long term, but Britain will try to prop 'em up.
 
Perhaps Britain will get overconfident and overplay their diplomatic hand.

Naval issues and the Pacific could be a wedge Germany continues to use against the Anglo-Japanese axis; there are also numerous ways they could decide to screw France and justify it with the whole "France gave up" shtick...

Gotta hope the treaty update(s) is soon lol, or we're all gonna eat each other here in the peanut gallery.
 
Perhaps Britain will get overconfident and overplay their diplomatic hand.
Alternatively, some of their newly annexed territories start rising up, forcing them to consider the British Empire now needs to suddenly start triaging what is more important, Europe or all their new clay. Especially since they're gonna have to downsize their army.
 
I agree with previous posters that an actual Battle would have ended poorly for the Germans, and that would would have been much worse.
Regarding peace terms, as long as the Germans gain control of the Briey-Longwy triangle they are fine, and I di not really see the British managing to force a White peace on Germany.
That said, if were the Germans I would gang up with the British in the near future and kick the shit out of the Ottomans going as far as reaching out to Baku once the war is over: if the Ottomans don't like It, to hello with them: they are in no position to interfere
 
PS also, the way I see It, while the UK will remain a top tier power for a time and Germany Will be no Absolute hegemon on the continent, the general Outlook for the British empire Is bleak: their economic strenght derived from dominance of the world markets and financial system and from their coloniale Empire: the former are soon going to be Lost: Germany and the US both had a much faster economic growth than the British Empire, the latter Is going to become the neckstone of the empire sooner rather than later: the Brits can't hold on India forever, and once India Is gone, the rest of the Empire will follow suit.
Finally the UK Is soon going to find themselves in a naval cul de sac: if something akin to the WNT is going to happen, then they are going to be forced to renounce their naval supremacy; if It doesn't... well, the UK the resources to outspend the Germans or the Japanese ol, but not the two of them + the USA at the same time.
 
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I quite like the course this timeline is taking for the moment. It seems that all too often discussions about a Central Powers victory in WW1 devolve into the same kind of minute-driven slogging fests, so it's nice to see a plausible and entertaining timeline on it.

The Ottoman section is quite well done. As much as it pains me as a card-carrying member of the Sublime Ottoboo State to say, by 1918 the chances of the Ottomans clawing back the entirety of their Arab territories was slim, possible perhaps only with German intervention. And the Central Powers were drifting apart with the war as you demonstrated, rather than having the war bring them together.

Looking forward to more!
 
Chaos in Germany: The German Interfactional Committee Reorganises (October 1918)
wSZs4v6.png

Chaos in Germany
The German Interfactional Committee Reorganises
October 1918

While Ludendorff had fallen from his role as effective military head of the state alongside Hindenburg much earlier in the year, he had slowly recovered from his stroke and by October was largely back on his feet - even if he was not fit for command. His aide and ally Max Bauer instead acted as his emissary to the OHL, while Hindenburg listened to both the Quartermaster Max Hoffmann and Ludendorff for advice.

The Kaiser, despite being firmly allied to the OHL, remained his own man and even in 1917 had considered peace with the allies that would have seen Alsace Lorraine returned in exchange for Luxembourg being annexed. This had failed though on account of British disinterest in a peace. Now though, Britain had effective naval supremacy and France had fallen - thus the two sides were at a stalemate neither could easily escape.

For the German people, and particularly the deputies in the Reichstag, this proved far too much to abide by. Peace was being negotiated in Brussels and Vienna, but upon highly expansionist lines Britain would no doubt reject, and ultimately it was Britain who now seemed motivated to continue a blockade - having begun to wrap up their war in Arabia. Essentially, Germany’s Parliamentary leaders, ignored for so long, now worried Germany was sleepwalking towards disaster.

This was not an unfounded concern. After the failure of the Hochseeflotte to sally and the threat of mutiny, the OHL essentially became rudderless. Unclear exactly what to do, but determined to achieve the maximum war aims for Germany, the clique chose to try and impose the harshest terms upon France they could get signed on paper, while aiming to feed the empire with French tribute supplies demanded in the coming treaty.

For Friedrich Ebert and Philipp Scheidemann of the SPD, both growingly popular politicians, the OHL’s direction of the country was growingly difficult to tolerate.

Locked out of influence by the restrictive German electoral franchise and unable to force an election to take place, the SPD felt unable to influence the negotiations with the allies and unable to end the growing economic crisis triggered by the British blockade. The SPD too were concerned that the state may not just fall to revolution if the current policy was kept - but that it’d fall to bolshevik revolution. Particularly after mutineers of the Hochseeflotte pledged their support for the USPD - not the SPD. Exhausted from the conflict, the SPD was also buoyed by a growing confidence from their rising support among the German populace, which sat at least 40% of the country’s voters by late 1918.

The biggest party in Germany, and joined by a gang of other parties who also felt locked out of negotiations such as the Zentrum and FVP, the group ultimately decided that they needed to take action.

Demanding Power
On October 5th, just two days after the German fleet failed to deploy, delegates in Brussels announced that a draft resolution of terms had been agreed in principle by the German delegation.

This agreement would see Belgium lose half of its territory to Germany - while also becoming a ‘vassal’ of Germany, while a further strip of French land in the Alsace region would be annexed as a ‘military zone’, Luxembourg would be annexed and a large strip of French territory from Nancy along the Meuse to Charleville would be annexed, along with the port of Dunkirk.

This outraged the Reichstag, who saw it as an inevitable trigger for a prolonged conflict with Britain and thus economic collapse. Particularly as by the 5th, news of the mutiny had begun to spread among Parliamentary leaders even if it had largely been contained from the general public. Worse still the proposal, combined with the discovery that the Kaiserliche Marine had failed to sortie by the French Government, triggered the immediate collapse of France’s self-destructive Government under Joseph Caillaux and the return of Aristide Briand’s more self-assured Ministry.

France, emboldened by the British belief that Germany’s fleet had essentially been neutered, and with the backing of the US, rejected the proposal and issued an ultimatum demanding more lenient terms along the Wilsonian principles, even going so far as to promise a continued war if the Germans did not agree. This was echoed by the US and British Governments, who aimed to force Germany into agreeing to the independence of Belgium and limited border changes.

Finally, the SPD saw an opening and organised a meeting of the leaders of the Interfactional Committee under Frederich Ebert, Matthias Erzberger, Vice Chancellor Friedrich von Payer, and even radical socialist Hugo Hase of the USPD. Here the faction agreed, with the crucial backing of the FVP that would give them a majority in the Reichstag, to demand immediate new elections along the principles of universal suffrage or the resignation of the Government and it’s replacement with a Government with the confidence of the Reichstag.

Issuing their demand to the Kaiser on November 4th in the morning papers, the group warned that failure by the Kaiser’s Government to agree to these basic terms would lead to the advocation of an immediate general strike across Germany.
 
Hopefully the threat of a general strike will put some sense into the OHL and military leaders and help swing the pendulum more towards the civilian government in negotiations, and lay a groundwork for post war reform.
 
Under these circumstances I think the best achievable peace for Germany is a free hand in the east, a few territorial annexations in the west (certainly Luxembourg, maybe Briey-Longwy, perhaps some little piece of Belgium) but in return, no colonies taken by Germany, and conceding a number of colonies to Britain.
 
wSZs4v6.png

Chaos in Germany
The German Interfactional Committee Reorganises
October 1918

While Ludendorff had fallen from his role as effective military head of the state alongside Hindenburg much earlier in the year, he had slowly recovered from his stroke and by October was largely back on his feet - even if he was not fit for command. His aide and ally Max Bauer instead acted as his emissary to the OHL, while Hindenburg listened to both the Quartermaster Max Hoffmann and Ludendorff for advice.

The Kaiser, despite being firmly allied to the OHL, remained his own man and even in 1917 had considered peace with the allies that would have seen Alsace Lorraine returned in exchange for Luxembourg being annexed. This had failed though on account of British disinterest in a peace. Now though, Britain had effective naval supremacy and France had fallen - thus the two sides were at a stalemate neither could easily escape.

For the German people, and particularly the deputies in the Reichstag, this proved far too much to abide by. Peace was being negotiated in Brussels and Vienna, but upon highly expansionist lines Britain would no doubt reject, and ultimately it was Britain who now seemed motivated to continue a blockade - having begun to wrap up their war in Arabia. Essentially, Germany’s Parliamentary leaders, ignored for so long, now worried Germany was sleepwalking towards disaster.

This was not an unfounded concern. After the failure of the Hochseeflotte to sally and the threat of mutiny, the OHL essentially became rudderless. Unclear exactly what to do, but determined to achieve the maximum war aims for Germany, the clique chose to try and impose the harshest terms upon France they could get signed on paper, while aiming to feed the empire with French tribute supplies demanded in the coming treaty.

For Friedrich Ebert and Philipp Scheidemann of the SPD, both growingly popular politicians, the OHL’s direction of the country was growingly difficult to tolerate.

Locked out of influence by the restrictive German electoral franchise and unable to force an election to take place, the SPD felt unable to influence the negotiations with the allies and unable to end the growing economic crisis triggered by the British blockade. The SPD too were concerned that the state may not just fall to revolution if the current policy was kept - but that it’d fall to bolshevik revolution. Particularly after mutineers of the Hochseeflotte pledged their support for the USPD - not the SPD. Exhausted from the conflict, the SPD was also buoyed by a growing confidence from their rising support among the German populace, which sat at least 40% of the country’s voters by late 1918.

The biggest party in Germany, and joined by a gang of other parties who also felt locked out of negotiations such as the Zentrum and FVP, the group ultimately decided that they needed to take action.

Demanding Power
On October 5th, just two days after the German fleet failed to deploy, delegates in Brussels announced that a draft resolution of terms had been agreed in principle by the German delegation.

This agreement would see Belgium lose half of its territory to Germany - while also becoming a ‘vassal’ of Germany, while a further strip of French land in the Alsace region would be annexed as a ‘military zone’, Luxembourg would be annexed and a large strip of French territory from Nancy along the Meuse to Charleville would be annexed, along with the port of Dunkirk.

This outraged the Reichstag, who saw it as an inevitable trigger for a prolonged conflict with Britain and thus economic collapse. Particularly as by the 5th, news of the mutiny had begun to spread among Parliamentary leaders even if it had largely been contained from the general public. Worse still the proposal, combined with the discovery that the Kaiserliche Marine had failed to sortie by the French Government, triggered the immediate collapse of France’s self-destructive Government under Joseph Caillaux and the return of Aristide Briand’s more self-assured Ministry.

France, emboldened by the British belief that Germany’s fleet had essentially been neutered, and with the backing of the US, rejected the proposal and issued an ultimatum demanding more lenient terms along the Wilsonian principles, even going so far as to promise a continued war if the Germans did not agree. This was echoed by the US and British Governments, who aimed to force Germany into agreeing to the independence of Belgium and limited border changes.

Finally, the SPD saw an opening and organised a meeting of the leaders of the Interfactional Committee under Frederich Ebert, Matthias Erzberger, Vice Chancellor Friedrich von Payer, and even radical socialist Hugo Hase of the USPD. Here the faction agreed, with the crucial backing of the FVP that would give them a majority in the Reichstag, to demand immediate new elections along the principles of universal suffrage or the resignation of the Government and it’s replacement with a Government with the confidence of the Reichstag.

Issuing their demand to the Kaiser on November 4th in the morning papers, the group warned that failure by the Kaiser’s Government to agree to these basic terms would lead to the advocation of an immediate general strike across Germany.

Great update. Yikes, things are escalating quickly for Germany (albeit not as bad as OTL). If the interfaction forces a government resignation, I think the most likely candidate for Chancellor is Max von Baden. He was recommended by several SPD members after Bethmann-Hollweg's fall in 1917 and was appointed Chancellor in October 1918 in OTL. Other candidates I'd also consider likely would be Vice Chancellor von Payer, Wilhelm Solf and even Ebert. I'm interested to see where you take German politics in this timeline.

I'd also largely agree with redfire's assessment of realistic peace terms. I'd argue that a free hand in Eastern Europe is basically guaranteed for Berlin.

In the west, I could see them annexing all of Luxembourg, Briey-Longwy from France, and Belgian Luxembourg (the latter being the absolute max the Brits could allow for). But Britain is likely going to insist on a neutral Belgium to compensate for a weakened France. I could see Belgium given Dunkirk as compensation for any loss to Germany.

Regarding the colonies, I see some French losses to Germany as basically inevitable, likely Dahomey & most of Equatorial Africa. If Germany wanted to be really mean, they may insist on France leaving Morocco, not to take it for themselves but just out of spite for the Tangier and Agadir crises, but I think that would depend on who's in charge of Germany by then. The Belgian Congo is a tossup, I think it depends on how Britain would react if Germany took it. I think South Africa is likely to insist on keeping Namibia. In the Pacific, I don't see Japan giving up their new conquests or Australia giving up New Guinea.

What do you think?

But of course, this timeline is yours and you can take it wherever you wish, a good story will always have my attention. I keenly await what you have planned next.
 
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I see some risks for the SPD and other left-wing parties in Germany in the future. For one thing, there is still the risk that there could be a kind of stab-in-the-back myth, especially if Germany's success at the negotiating table is not commensurate with the sacrifices made.
There is also the risk of the myth of a mutilated victory, which can also be negative for the social democrats.
I don't think it will be easy for the SPD to come to power, firstly because Germany at that time was still very aggrarian and therefore conservative, and secondly because the great conservative movement remained more or less intact and did not disintegrate into a hundred splinter parties. The big question will be whether the Zentrums Party will join forces with the SPD, as OTL did, or, which in my view is more likely, join the wider conservative camp.
The biggest difficulties after the war, however, will be the navy, because it was very expensive and not only did nothing throughout the war, but was even an obstacle to Germany's success. The mutiny at the end and the support of the USPD by the sailors will ensure that the navy will remain very close to the eye of the powerful and will be subjected to a comprehensive purge.
 
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All caught up and just want to thank the author for this fantastic timeline. I have nothing against a good ‘wank’, but it’s quite refreshing to read a timeline where plausibility instead of a pre-established ultimate goal is unequivocally the primary concern of the author. Looking forward for more!
 
Something I’ve just thought of. Germany might agree to Wilson’s League of Nations (if the League is proposed here) as a means to try and strip colonies from Belgium or France.

In other words, the German delegation turns up to the Brussels conference, claims that Leopold’s excesses in the Congo are “proof” the area requires “protection” under a LofN mandate, effectively turning it into a German colony.
 

tonycat77

Banned
Which isn't to say British colonialism wasn't incredibly violent and repressive, but it was at the very least a functioning democracy who generally didn't commit widespread genocide in their African colonies. There is absolutely nothing admirable about the German Empire in this period which isn't found in the British, while far more is reprehensible.
I can't believe you wrote that with a straight face:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule
 
Locked out of influence by the restrictive German electoral franchise
Sorry but i have quite a bit of a problem with this line.
Many confuse the prussian electoral franchise with the german federal franchise of the time.
As a matter of fact the federal franchise was one of the most democratic ones of the time. The downside was the federal parliament had way to few competencies.
The prussian franchise on the other hand was quite unjust but the prussian parliament, as the parliament of the biggest memberstate of the empire had an excessive amount of power.
 
I don't think a League of Nations is in the cards -- the bitter multipolarity that exists between the German and Anglo blocs suggests something more like the Congress of Vienna, based in the Westphalian model. Wilson also couldn't manage to get America to join when we were on the winning team, let alone in these circumstances
 
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