What great crime did Serbia do to ‘deserve’ to be invaded and dismantled. Not submitting themselves to the Hasburgs really that great of a crime.My sympathies for Serbia and Wilson are zero. Congrats to the Central Powers, though Bulgaria should be bopped on the nose for the Bulgarization in a couple decades. Probably won't happen. Ah well.
Indeed. The Serbian people certainly did not deserve the depredations they were subject to.As far as I can see it, the only morally coherent stance both ITTL and OTL is to sympathize with the people of Serbia, Bulgaria, and the rest of the Balkans while criticizing the criminal actions their governments took to serve a radical nationalist agenda.
What great crime did Serbia do to ‘deserve’ to be invaded and dismantled. Not submitting themselves to the Hasburgs really that great of a crime.
My lack of sympathy is for Serbia the state, not Serbians the people. Serbia the state's crime was jumping head first into national suicide. They had numerous opportunities to stop poking Austria with a stick. They repeatedly picked fights with larger powers and counted on being saved by Russia if things turned against them, and their ravenous hunger for a 'Yugoslavia' (Aka, Greater Serbia) that virtually no other South Slav really wanted was a delusional collision course with reality that started two world wars and then some, soooo...Bruh, really? Something like at least 300,000 Serbian civilians died; a combination of starvation, disease, forced labor, and a deliberate campaign of genocide. And that's the conservative estimate. Some go up to 650,000 and even 1 million. In a country with a population of 3.2 million. All for the crime of getting war declared on them because they didn't want to become a puppet state.
And now a substantial portion of that remaining population is living in foreign countries, where they can expect to be forced to give up their culture and very identity at best, or be deported/ethnically cleansed at worst.
….My lack of sympathy is for Serbia the state, not Serbians the people. Serbia the state's crime was jumping head first into national suicide. They had numerous opportunities to stop poking Austria with a stick. They repeatedly picked fights with larger powers and counted on being saved by Russia if things turned against them, and their ravenous hunger for a 'Yugoslavia' (Aka, Greater Serbia) that virtually no other South Slav really wanted was a delusional collision course with reality that started two world wars and then some, soooo...
Yeah. Serbia the state can choke.
Serbians the people are a different discussion, but this is a work of fiction where the characters are as much the various states themselves as anything else, so no real people were harmed.
The whole cycle of events that happened are because of Serbia's actions, yes.Are you actually blaming WW1 and WW2 on Serbia?
Serbia accepted all but one demand of an ultimatum intentionally made unacceptable, no sovereign state would ever accept it no matter what because it’d have made them an Austrian puppet in all but name and for a strange reason people like independence. The black hand wasn’t supported by the government, at least by the King from writings but they had a lot of power: after all they had overthrown the last dynasty so you couldn’t go against them. Also they started two world wars? Are they teaching you now that WW2 started over Serbia? Where are you from that this is taught? I have certain guesses but want to make sure but well I am pretty sure it started over Poland. I do believe the Kaiserreich was the lesser evil in WW1 and its victory at worst would be no worse than OTL but its main allies: Austria and the Ottomans, well neither was shy of genocide or ethnic cleansing.My lack of sympathy is for Serbia the state, not Serbians the people. Serbia the state's crime was jumping head first into national suicide. They had numerous opportunities to stop poking Austria with a stick. They repeatedly picked fights with larger powers and counted on being saved by Russia if things turned against them, and their ravenous hunger for a 'Yugoslavia' (Aka, Greater Serbia) that virtually no other South Slav really wanted was a delusional collision course with reality that started two world wars and then some, soooo...
Yeah. Serbia the state can choke.
Serbians the people are a different discussion, but this is a work of fiction where the characters are as much the various states themselves as anything else, so no real people were harmed.
.... WW2 happened because WWI. WWI happened (the way it actually happened) because of Serbia. I didn't say Serbia specifically started WW2.Serbia accepted all but one demand of an ultimatum intentionally made unacceptable, no sovereign state would ever accept it no matter what because it’d have made them an Austrian puppet in all but name and for a strange reason people like independence. The black hand wasn’t supported by the government, at least by the King from writings but they had a lot of power: after all they had overthrown the last dynasty so you couldn’t go against them. Also they started two world wars? Are they teaching you now that WW2 started over Serbia? Where are you from that this is taught? I have certain guesses but want to make sure but well I am pretty sure it started over Poland. I do believe the Kaiserreich was the lesser evil in WW1 and its victory at worst would be no worse than OTL but its main allies: Austria and the Ottomans, well neither was shy of genocide or ethnic cleansing.
That’s probably smart. Keeping the focus on the treaties makes for a more straightforward narrative then you can move outwards for a broader look at the impactsAnyway, glad you all enjoyed the update.
As for the lack of mentioning domestic events in the US etc - these things will be touched on in later updates dedicated to them. They are already planned out and considered though, I just don't like to go over too many parts of the world in one update.
That is currently being created, yesCan we get a overall map after all treaties?
How far are you planning on taking this TL?That is currently being created, yes
At least until another great war, approximately 1950s at least I'd assume.How far are you planning on taking this TL?
Sounds good.At least until another great war, approximately 1950s at least I'd assume.
Italy:But the treaty ultimately paled in comparison to another treaty in terms of it’s immediate social consequences - that signed in Zurich.
Bulgaria having the strongest allies sounds like a pretty strong diplomatic way to prevent three minor powers from attacking it. Serbia just lost a massive amount of territory and population, and at this point they're basically as irrelevant as Albania (maybe less so). The territories seized by Bulgaria are quite defensible and the three neighbors now have no land connection. Even if they lost Germany's support Hungary and Bulgaria alone would be enough to stop that alliance in its tracks in all likelihood. I really can't see this Bulgaria falling apart unless it loses a second world war with Germany somehow.Bulgaria may have the upper hand and the strongest allies, but they have no diplomatic way to prevent combinations of Romania, Serbia, and Greece from wanting to gang up and retake their claims. The Romano-Serb axis could also ally against the Hungarians if they manage to cause the political dissolution of the Dual Monarchy with their intransigence, and the Serbo-Greek axis would have room to strike against Albania as well.