To the Moon on atomic power

Nuclear thermal rockets were considered for the upper stage of the lunar landings but, ultimately, weren't used.
I'm not sure which POD is required as I'm not that knowledgeable of space technology. Earlier development? A political or technical decision? The Soviets use them first? So, being honest, this is sort of a AHC.

And, if it happens, what are the long term consequences for space exploration and nuclear power?
 

Delta Force

Banned
The NERVA nuclear thermal rocket was considered for use as an upper stage on Saturn V derivative rockets. I don't know if NERVA was ever planned for use on lunar missions (I think at various points unspecified nuclear thermal rockets were), but it was considered for use on Mars missions. The rocket passed all of its tests before the program was canceled in 1972, and a few sources claim it is because without NERVA a manned mission to Mars wasn't as feasible.

Interestingly, I think nuclear thermal rocketry technology was started as an upper stage for a USAF heavy ICBM project, but because warhead weight went down the required rockets weren't as large. I don't think an ICBM would have been the best use of nuclear thermal rocket anyways. While efficient, they have low power to weight ratios and are more suited to use in space.
 
Interestingly, I think nuclear thermal rocketry technology was started as an upper stage for a USAF heavy ICBM project, but because warhead weight went down the required rockets weren't as large. I don't think an ICBM would have been the best use of nuclear thermal rocket anyways. While efficient, they have low power to weight ratios and are more suited to use in space.

I actually have a diagram of a modified Atlas ICBM using an NTR as its first stage, with a conventional upper stage. No idea what's up with that.
 
Nuclear propulsion in space pretty much relies on the fact that you're using atomic bomb explosions to propel yourself around (Or in the case of NERVA engines, using stuff used to make atomic bombs). This could get a lot of people worried really fast.

To get this up and working again, you're going to need to find a way to end the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and other possible treaties, and a workaround of the Outer Space Treaty. To do THAT, you're going to need to find some way to convince people it's okay to test nuclear explosives, above ground, where the explosions can have possible negative effects on health and definite effects on nearby electronics in the form of EMPs (or possibly just in space, still EMP-ing satellites), as long as it's for 'peaceful, non-weaponized purposes'. In the heat of the Cold War.

This is going to send the Soviet Union into full spook. The Americans have managed to test these massive, nuclear crafts, above ground and into space...and everybody's okay with this?! To avoid a nuclear panic and possible preemptive strike, the U.S would have to be reasonably open about their project, making sure to explain its method of propulsion in (reasonable) detail, and describing the payloads of such craft so as to mitigate suspicions of foul intent. The Russians are still not going to like this one bit, be it from the frightening nature of nuclear craft or the military supremacy of the U.S in space. Because of America's forced openness with their technology (and advertising how much more efficient it is than chemical rockets), the USSR, using combinations of observation, scientists and espionage, will try to piece together the fundamentals of the American nuclear drive and make their own. Eventually the Russians will begin testing of their own nuclear rockets, much to the dismay of the Americans.

The driving force of the space race and the Apollo program was the fear that Russia would gain military supremacy through space, and have a Russian military operation on the Moon ready to strike anywhere at any time. If Russia were to make it to the moon first, or show signs of continuing its space program, the U.S made plans to build a base on the Moon to counter a Russian base. After Neil Armstrong planted his boot into the lunar regolith, it became evident that Russia was beginning to lose its ability and drive to compete in space, and the plans of a moonbase were canceled.

A nuclear-enabled space race might get a whole lot fiercer, with Russia showing clear signs of overtaking the U.S. A Russian moon base might appear more clear than ever to the Americans, and plans of their own base might be constructed in more detail. If Russia sets foot first, the Americans will definitely try to follow suit, especially with their moonbase plans. If America sets foot first, Russia might still not lose hope with their new knowledge of nuclear propulsion opening up opportunities for vast amounts of resources to be transported long distances. They may not be the first people on the Moon, but an idea for a moonbase might be independently thought up by them (rather than being a simple fear of the Americans) and may attempt one. Optionally, they may wait until interest in U.S space exploration dies down (like it did in the 70's) and launch their moonbase mission without time for the US to react (Or perhaps they knew it all along through espionage and rolled out their plan). Like I said before this would all be happening in the heat of the Cold War.

If, somehow, you manage not to destroy modern civilization, there could be serious implications for space travel. Certain designs of nuclear spacecraft are estimated to reach speeds of 0.3% to 3% the speed of light. And of course, there are the moonbases mentioned earlier. You know how much the Apollo landings ignited sci fi and dreams of young boys and girls to become astronauts? How the very dream of expanding technology couples with the advances learned from space propelled the OTL Space Age into cell phones and personal computers? Think of what's gonna happen with permanent or semi-permanent moonbases. Nothing ASB but it's gon be good. Manned missions to Mars suddenly seem more feasible (though you should still go through the same probe routine as in OTL). Probes can be conveniently sent throughout the solar system to investigate worlds. In a somewhat far future, a flyby of Alpha Centauri could be performed that could take less than a human lifetime in transit time. Scientific research would expound everywhere, and possibly a new appreciation of the stars and our place in the universe.

An increased likelihood of warfare in space is also possible. A destroyed satellite could cause a domino effect of creating even more debris, thus rendering humans incapable of safely leaving Earth for a good while. Simply blowing them up might be avoided in favor of creating craft designed to grab a satellite and deorbit it. The primary interests in space warfare might be orbital airstrikes (Likely not nuclear. We don't want to destroy civilization now do we?) and attacks on outer space outposts and bases.

And of course you're going to have lots of catastrophic accidents associated with nuclear spacecraft, just like how all the early spaceships had accidents (only these would be much worse depending on the circumstances). Doubt might arise about if nuclear power truly is the way to go for space. You'll have to find a way around this.

Nuclear power might be considered in greater detail for planetary use. These are early nuclear plants we're talking about though. An increase in plants may possibly mean more Chernobyls. More Chernobyls may mean an increased fear and dissidence of nuclear power, and such technology may be restricted to outer space use for the most part.

And, of course, there is the possibility of a hush-hush mission to get a fleet of ICBMs disguised as scientific (or commercial/logistical/???) spaceships looming over Earth poised to tactically and decisively knock out all rival nations' ability for defense and invade. This, I think, still allows the ability for a last-minute MAD.

All in all nuclear propulsion is a great way to get around in space and if it weren't for earthling squeamishness about putting potential nukes in orbit it would have put the space race on steroids. But also very dangerous as far as human fallibility goes.


I'm sort of new here, did I get too carried away? :\
 

Delta Force

Banned
I actually have a diagram of a modified Atlas ICBM using an NTR as its first stage, with a conventional upper stage. No idea what's up with that.

If they were using it on the first stage, I can only imagine they hadn't quite figured out the power to weight ratio of aerospace nuclear power yet. I would have thought an NTR engine would have been used on something more akin to the Titan. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use an NTR stage on an ICBM anyways.

Also, please show that diagram if you can.
 
The only way I can imagine NERVA getting full funding for a 1970 Moon goal would be if NASA adopts a direct-ascent, single-launch profile without wanting to commit to Nova. Essentially, Saturn V landing an Apollo CSM on the Moon and returning it to Earth. Though I imagine such a vehicle would also use the NTR for orbit circularization instead of an S-IVB--so you'd have some more LEO payload to play with.

A rough estimate suggests that this mission profile would involve the nuclear booster going straight from LEO to the Moon's surface and then the Apollo CSM blasting off back to Earth, leaving the reactor on the Moon.

Even then, I doubt the engine could be ready on time. Maybe by 1975 you could have a functioning stage, but that would require a different history of the Apollo program--no 1970 commitment. Perhaps NASA commits to the Space Transportation System (including the NTR space tugs) earlier, when money is flowing more freely, instead of a Moon goal--so you get an NTR-based Moon mission by 1980.
 
Nuclear propulsion in space pretty much relies on the fact that you're using atomic bomb explosions to propel yourself around (Or in the case of NERVA engines, using stuff used to make atomic bombs). This could get a lot of people worried really fast.

To get this up and working again, you're going to need to find a way to end the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and other possible treaties, and a workaround of the Outer Space Treaty. To do THAT, you're going to need to find some way to convince people it's okay to test nuclear explosives, above ground, where the explosions can have possible negative effects on health and definite effects on nearby electronics in the form of EMPs (or possibly just in space, still EMP-ing satellites), as long as it's for 'peaceful, non-weaponized purposes'. In the heat of the Cold War.

This is going to send the Soviet Union into full spook. The Americans have managed to test these massive, nuclear crafts, above ground and into space...and everybody's okay with this?! To avoid a nuclear panic and possible preemptive strike, the U.S would have to be reasonably open about their project, making sure to explain its method of propulsion in (reasonable) detail, and describing the payloads of such craft so as to mitigate suspicions of foul intent. The Russians are still not going to like this one bit, be it from the frightening nature of nuclear craft or the military supremacy of the U.S in space. Because of America's forced openness with their technology (and advertising how much more efficient it is than chemical rockets), the USSR, using combinations of observation, scientists and espionage, will try to piece together the fundamentals of the American nuclear drive and make their own. Eventually the Russians will begin testing of their own nuclear rockets, much to the dismay of the Americans.

The driving force of the space race and the Apollo program was the fear that Russia would gain military supremacy through space, and have a Russian military operation on the Moon ready to strike anywhere at any time. If Russia were to make it to the moon first, or show signs of continuing its space program, the U.S made plans to build a base on the Moon to counter a Russian base. After Neil Armstrong planted his boot into the lunar regolith, it became evident that Russia was beginning to lose its ability and drive to compete in space, and the plans of a moonbase were canceled.

A nuclear-enabled space race might get a whole lot fiercer, with Russia showing clear signs of overtaking the U.S. A Russian moon base might appear more clear than ever to the Americans, and plans of their own base might be constructed in more detail. If Russia sets foot first, the Americans will definitely try to follow suit, especially with their moonbase plans. If America sets foot first, Russia might still not lose hope with their new knowledge of nuclear propulsion opening up opportunities for vast amounts of resources to be transported long distances. They may not be the first people on the Moon, but an idea for a moonbase might be independently thought up by them (rather than being a simple fear of the Americans) and may attempt one. Optionally, they may wait until interest in U.S space exploration dies down (like it did in the 70's) and launch their moonbase mission without time for the US to react (Or perhaps they knew it all along through espionage and rolled out their plan). Like I said before this would all be happening in the heat of the Cold War.

If, somehow, you manage not to destroy modern civilization, there could be serious implications for space travel. Certain designs of nuclear spacecraft are estimated to reach speeds of 0.3% to 3% the speed of light. And of course, there are the moonbases mentioned earlier. You know how much the Apollo landings ignited sci fi and dreams of young boys and girls to become astronauts? How the very dream of expanding technology couples with the advances learned from space propelled the OTL Space Age into cell phones and personal computers? Think of what's gonna happen with permanent or semi-permanent moonbases. Nothing ASB but it's gon be good. Manned missions to Mars suddenly seem more feasible (though you should still go through the same probe routine as in OTL). Probes can be conveniently sent throughout the solar system to investigate worlds. In a somewhat far future, a flyby of Alpha Centauri could be performed that could take less than a human lifetime in transit time. Scientific research would expound everywhere, and possibly a new appreciation of the stars and our place in the universe.

An increased likelihood of warfare in space is also possible. A destroyed satellite could cause a domino effect of creating even more debris, thus rendering humans incapable of safely leaving Earth for a good while. Simply blowing them up might be avoided in favor of creating craft designed to grab a satellite and deorbit it. The primary interests in space warfare might be orbital airstrikes (Likely not nuclear. We don't want to destroy civilization now do we?) and attacks on outer space outposts and bases.

And of course you're going to have lots of catastrophic accidents associated with nuclear spacecraft, just like how all the early spaceships had accidents (only these would be much worse depending on the circumstances). Doubt might arise about if nuclear power truly is the way to go for space. You'll have to find a way around this.

Nuclear power might be considered in greater detail for planetary use. These are early nuclear plants we're talking about though. An increase in plants may possibly mean more Chernobyls. More Chernobyls may mean an increased fear and dissidence of nuclear power, and such technology may be restricted to outer space use for the most part.

And, of course, there is the possibility of a hush-hush mission to get a fleet of ICBMs disguised as scientific (or commercial/logistical/???) spaceships looming over Earth poised to tactically and decisively knock out all rival nations' ability for defense and invade. This, I think, still allows the ability for a last-minute MAD.

All in all nuclear propulsion is a great way to get around in space and if it weren't for earthling squeamishness about putting potential nukes in orbit it would have put the space race on steroids. But also very dangerous as far as human fallibility goes.


I'm sort of new here, did I get too carried away? :\
Well, Nervas and Orions are different things. Roughly speaking, a nerva rocket puts a nuclear reactor (sort of like the civilian ones used to create electricity) and uses the heat of the reactor to burn liquid hidrogen. So it doesn't mean nukes in space.
It does mean "enriched uranium flying over everyone's heads" though, so that's going to raise quite a few eyebrows.
 

SunDeep

Banned
Not in the '60s it won't. Different times and all that.

It'll certainly raise eyebrows for the Soviets. ITTL, you'd definitely have a Soviet manned mission to the moon as well, and a spiral where space becomes increasingly weaponized by both sides of the iron curtain.
 
I actually have a diagram of a modified Atlas ICBM using an NTR as its first stage, with a conventional upper stage. No idea what's up with that.

there two design with that feature
a USAF Atlas ICBM using NERVA like core engine to reach the evil communist faster and deadlier

Helios by engineers of Atlas rocket
it was proposal for heavy lift rocket that use Big NERVA core engine using Hydrogen while in booster are oxygen tanks for chemical engines.
payload was 74 tons for Helios A to 86 tons for c version

a Helios C with 43 tons could reach moon orbit or even several kilometer over lunar surface, so payload can detach land aside crash NERVA stage.
 
Couldn't they set up a perimeter for its use? This may help in getting minimal radiation for Earth and its satellites. Atomic power can be used as propulsion 1.5 million km away from Earth(L1 point), etc.
 
Couldn't they set up a perimeter for its use? This may help in getting minimal radiation for Earth and its satellites. Atomic power can be used as propulsion 1.5 million km away from Earth(L1 point), etc.

That would be several different kinds of pointless.

Robert Heinlein once remarked, "once you're in Low Earth Orbit [altitude about 400 miles], you're half way to anywhere." Starting your nuclear rocket much outside Low Earth Orbit means that you're using it for smaller and smaller portions of the trip. If you start requiring that your nuclear rocket isn't fired up until you're at EML-1, then you don't get much benefit out of it at all--certainly not enough to justify its cost.

In fact, travel between low earth orbit and the lagrange points is one of the best uses for any kind of nuclear propulsion (pulse, electric, or thermal) because they have the mass fraction to be somewhat easily reusable, allowing you to use a comparatively small, lightweight chemical propulsion stage for the last tiny bit of impulse you need to get from EML-1 or -2 to where you actually want to be.
 
Well, Nervas and Orions are different things. Roughly speaking, a nerva rocket puts a nuclear reactor (sort of like the civilian ones used to create electricity) and uses the heat of the reactor to burn liquid hidrogen. So it doesn't mean nukes in space.
It does mean "enriched uranium flying over everyone's heads" though, so that's going to raise quite a few eyebrows.

Quoting an entire enormous post is fairly irritating to get past if you're on a mobile phone.
 
Nuclear thermal rockets were considered for the upper stage of the lunar landings but, ultimately, weren't used.
I'm not sure which POD is required as I'm not that knowledgeable of space technology. Earlier development? A political or technical decision? The Soviets use them first? So, being honest, this is sort of a AHC.

And, if it happens, what are the long term consequences for space exploration and nuclear power?

Using nuclear as a propulsion is possible. Political is necessary though.

you will see a more advanced space program. So our space tech would be pushed decades ahead. Although, we do have a working theory warp drive otl 1990s.

I also see the development of fission to fusion faster than otl.

Competition always drive nations to become better, faster. Absent of it, like present day otl, there is no way USA is going to prioritize space budget until china is in parity with USA tech. If put Cold War era space budget % on present day, that would be around 120b+ usd instead of the less than 20b usd.

But USA otl priorities free handouts, expensive Middle East wars, than space advancement.
 
It'll certainly raise eyebrows for the Soviets. ITTL, you'd definitely have a Soviet manned mission to the moon as well, and a spiral where space becomes increasingly weaponized by both sides of the iron curtain.

Frankly militarising space strikes me as a fairly core element for stepping up the space race.
 
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