To Sealion and Beyond...

VERY nice work Chris.
Couldn't have done it better myself (lol)
Don't mind them, they just don't want their world beeing turned upside down by a succesfull invasion of England
Here's an ideea that u might want to incorporate in the timeline:
the germans don't push home their attack in Norway, instead, they allow the occasional british counterattack to work, only to get more british ships in the area for a longer time, basically grinding the british fleet and airforce. This might delay every other event by a couple of weeks or months (invasion of France etc), but I don't thing it would dramatically change them. It would simply allow u too have an even weaker british navy.
Too bad u dind't post a poll about the possiblity of a succesful sealion, would have been very curious too see the result
 

Chris

Banned
the germans don't push home their attack in Norway, instead, they allow the occasional british counterattack to work, only to get more british ships in the area for a longer time, basically grinding the british fleet and airforce.

I wouldn't have risked something like that myself. The Germans wanted - very much - to secure Norway and avoid a 2-front war. The longer the fighting there lasted, the more chance that the French might do something stupid, or the Norwegions might manage to mount a counterattack, or something, or the UK might manage to seal off Norway and sink the remainder of the german fleet.

To FAEELIN - The Japanese did plan to stab the British in the back when (if) Sealion was launched. Of course, in OTL it was never launched. They presumabully calculated that FDR wouldn't be able to interfere with them if no direct american interests were threatened.

The Germans also had the grand plan...they would send all males of military age into work camps, they would break britain, and...and...well, you get the idea. It's impossible to say for certain, but they behaved themselves in the Channel Islands, so...

Chris
 
Everyone, I think it's just that Chris wants a backstory for a Nazi-victory timeline he's going to use in an ISOT story.


Ah, I didn't know that.

Carry on then.

The Germans also had the grand plan...they would send all males of military age into work camps, they would break britain, and...and...well, you get the idea. It's impossible to say for certain, but they behaved themselves in the Channel Islands, so...

Well, it's your call; but given their wonderful policies in places like Poland or the Ukraine, I think it's a bit silly to say that they wouldn't carry out a horrifically evil and absurd plan.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Nice work.

I think you still need to explain more in details how Germany got off with diverting resources and attention in time for having a seacontrol winning Wehrmacht by 1940 without provocing UK to a more hostile line.

Basically the Anglo-German naval agreement of 1935 convinced the British that Germany would not seriously challenge British supremacy at sea, and therefore took the German excesses on the continent far more easy.

But any hint of German focus on any thing threatening at sea will greatly increase the chance of Hitler stumbling over Spanich Civil War, Anschluss or Munich.

I doubt if some naval successes in March 1940 and a following increased focus on naval air will give time enough to have a Luftwaffe strong enough to challenge the RN in a Sea Lion in time.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Chris

Banned
Basically the Anglo-German naval agreement of 1935 convinced the British that Germany would not seriously challenge British supremacy at sea, and therefore took the German excesses on the continent far more easy.

In a very real sense, the threat appears to be lesser, not greater - the germans aren't working towards a massive - and impossible - fleet of battleships. Anyone counting ships would get a clear british advantage...

Re Bargaining chips, it goes something like this...

IF you can defeat the germans, then losing all or most of the RN in the attempt is worthwhile...or is it? A crippling british loss might lead to Japan or Italy jumping on the empire.

IF you can't defeat the germans, then you either lose the RN - causing vast damage to the germans in the process - or use the navy as a bargaining chip. IF you do that, you piss off the germans, who will have lost thousands of comrades and therefore won't be gentle.

Churchill would have fought on. Halifax might not have. Point is, the UK didn;t have the ground forces to stand off a german attack...could the Navy make enough of a difference to prevent the germans from winning the war on the land?

Chris

PS - please keep pointing out details like that. I have to refine it a bit more.
 
In all honesty, your story has a whiff of naziwank about it…they do everything right while everybody else is floundering. There just seems to be a distinct lack of counteractions from the allies.

Great Britain was pretty paranoid about rival naval strengths. She relied heavily upon the naval treaties of the era to maintain her position. The idea that Germany could have built up conventional naval strength without a British response is ludicrous. Britain would never have stood for it. It would have strengthened its own naval forces and worked diplomatically at weakening Germany and/or forming alliances against Germany.

What might have worked is a German combat system which the British underestimated. For instance, suppose Germany built large numbers of E-boats. The British, used to determining naval strength by battleships and destroyers are not impressed and think these little motor torpedo boats are only useful in coastal operations. But, unknown to the British, the Germans have built ocean going e-boats which are based on a mother ship (converted luxery liner). Or perhaps the Germans have perfected long-range torpedo bombers, effective torpedoes and the accompanying proper anti-shipping tactics. While Britain still believes naval air power is still a matter of reconnaissance and that the battleship rules the waves…

Most grievously is the complete and utter lack of internal Germany political dynamics in your timeline. The Germans working in harmony and efficieny? The Third Reich? The most unorganized and inefficient empire in history? A bunch of nazi wankers who made even Mussolini’s carnival empire look like a tightly-run ship?

Where is Goering while superman Kriegslieter (please eliminate the name, if nothing else) becomes the most powerful person in the Third Reich after Hitler? Where is Himmler, Goebbels et al? Himmler faked a treasonous dossier on Rohm because he was too powerful and frustrated his own ambitions. Just what do you think he would have done with your man Kriegslieter? All German leaders ran their own departments as little fiefdoms. Having some guy other than Hitler call the shots would only get them to band together against a common threat, as happened with Rohm.
 
Kreigslieter has no existence in the Original TimeLine
That makes him extremely convenient...
Germany lacked – badly – a strong central authority to handle the economy. Hitler simply didn’t have the concentration needed to focus on the work, or on drawing firm lines of control.
Wanna bet? Hitler wanted confusion & competition. It kept anybody from having too big a power base. It's the same reason Soviet leaders kept the Party, Army, & KGB at each other's throats all the time--to keep them away from his.
sharing some information with Japan
The two navies work together to develop their plans against the Americans. The Germans also – reluctantly – share a-bomb tech with the Japanese.
sunk with the use of Japanese-designed torpedoes.
You're joking, right? These 2 would jointly plan & share (Top Secret!) information about as much as the U.S. & Iraq. They could barely stand each other.
Kreigslieter manages to convince Hitler to allow some information sharing
That's extremely convenient.
This leads to the development of a greater air transport capability.
Why? Because bombers aren't useful for anything?
German anti-ship capability; he wants a crash program to duplicate it.
When did RN suddenly have less antiship capability than Germany? OTL, I think Cuba had more.
a planned Panzer V
The Germans also begin mass production of the Panzer V; a tank built using lessons learnt from the war in the west.
Well, no. Not until they met the T-34. The response to "lessons of the war in the west" was upgunning the Pz4 with the 75mm L/43 & adding armor (which, BTW, begain to overwhelm the front suspension) & consider an L/70 or L/100 (too heavy for the suspension).
it becomes evident that Italy won’t join in unless victory seems certain.
Really? OTL, Mussolini had everybody pretty well fooled...
Soviet and Japanese forces clashed at Nomonhan, in North China. The Russians soundly spanked the overconfident Japanese.
when Japan launches an attack at the Soviet rear.
Guess not.
they are less than impressed by some of the failures that the German airpower showed.
What failures would those be, exactly?
Lord Halifax panics and orders the BEF evacuated
When did rescuing a force in the face of an evidently disastrous situation constitute panic? IIRC, it was Gort who decided it, a correct decision IMO.
The world turns against Britain, in the form of Italy and Japan. The Italians have been planning an offensive into Egypt for weeks; they launch into the very weak British position – and, with a final sting, attack Malta. The almost-undefended island falls and is annexed by Italy. In the meantime, Japan launches a limited attack against the Dutch East Indies – ‘sold’ to them by Germany – and a handful of other British possessions.
Without an attack on Pearl Harbor? In your dreams.
the Mosley Government has also reluctantly accepted Japanese control of the former British and Dutch possessions in the Far East.
I suppose the U.S. just lies down for this?
[The Americans have much less leverage and will to press Japan to the point where the Japanese would make the decision to launch the war against the USA.]
If the U.S. has so much less leverage, why does Japan decide to attack anyhow? And if the Germans have persuaded the Brits & Dutch to be "co-operative", why does Japan have to? She's now able to "peacefully" get the resources she needs without U.S. interference. And given FDR loses the election (which I don't believe), & there's no Lend-Lease (ditto), Japan won't be so convinved of U.S.-British inseperability or the need to attack Pearl Harbor. Or is Yamamoto a moron TTL?:confused: (Of course, with IJA getting the lion's share of the credit for the Southern Operation, saving face might be necessary, but there's saved face & then there's seppuku...:confused:)
but there just isn’t enough to send.
LOL.:confused::confused: American production capacity exceeded Germany, Italy, & Japan combined. (Probably Britain, too.) How does FDR lose the capacity to arrange Lend-Lease? Especially with Winston actually in Washington warning him personally how dire it is?
Lord Halifax orders the remains of the Home Fleet to Canada and leaves himself
Neither would be welcome here at the time. Canada was beginning to feel independent. Bermuda, the Bahamas, Jamaica, maybe...
Canadian Government refusing to recognise the Halifax government
On what planet? King wouldn't have refused in his wildest dreams. (I'm less sure it was even technically possible at the time for a Commonwealth country. Or now, for all that.)
the Royal Family ... are roundly booed at the quay.
Not a chance. The Royals were extremely popular here then.
South Africa withdraws from the war; British immigration to South Africa jumps several fold in the next few months.
After they've left Britain in the lurch?
the largely unarmed Indians could not have revolted against the British
India had damn all reason to revolt. She knew she'd get her independence soon enough. Just like P.I. & U.S....
Stalin is growing more and more paranoid about a joint German-Japanese attack, particularly when the NKVD hears about covert German-Turkish talks. His paranoia leads him to make vastly greater military preparations on one hand and purges on the other; the Soviet Union enters a realm of pure fear.
Stalin was bending over backwards to avoid provoking Hitler, sure he could prevent war. Why would he do something likely to start one?
In any case, Roosevelt lost the election.
Why? He's suddenly a complete political nincompoop?
Resistance was minimal; German rule was actually not that bad
Tell that to the Russians who were being butchered routinely.
a large number emigrated to South Africa, rather than face the Germans.
And Germany allowed this when? And why?:confused:
The new American Government, not exactly reluctantly, started a military build-up of its own, including an alliance with Australia.
Why? USG feels threatened by a 3d-rate nation (Japan) 8000mi away?:confused:
The Japanese signed a non-aggression pact with Australia and New Zealand in early 1941
Why?:confused: The Ozzies & New Zealanders were threatening to send soccer hooligans to sumo matches?
Operation Barbarossa is formally launched on May 10th, 1941
Let's see, the rivers are still in full flood, the roads are impassable muck, & Hitler is in charge. I forsee a disaster that makes Stalingrad look like a victory.
including tanks the equal of the Russian machines
Fat bloody chance.
divisions recruited from the subject nations, including French and British soldiers. Some of them came out of prison camps, promised a year in German service, then freedom.
Brits numbered, what, a few hundred? French, maybe. Slavs Hitler considered sub-human (until the sub-human Russians had him on the ropes in '43...).
By the end of 1941, Japan has seized large chunks of Siberia – along with a very willing White Army, composed of people sent to the camps
Sure. This is the same Japan which considered other Asians about as inferior as Hitler did Slavs, & (like the Germans) only recruited after things started getting desperate...
facing off against the major divisions from Siberia
Y'know, that's getting really old. Hitler did more to save Moscow than the Siberians. And if they've arrived, the Germans have delayed long enough to be buggered anyhow.
and the Germans have all the time they could possibly need.
After the brutal treatment of Russians following the invasion, I seriously doubt that. Sooner or later, the partisans will have their say. Presuming a new Russian government isn't created out of reach of Germany.
the Germans draw the lesson that they need more longer-ranged bombers from the campaign
German industrial capacity wasn't sufficient for it, which is one reason von Kesselring opposed them.
German Panzers make their way to Baku, linking up with an Iranian force, adding the resources of the vast region to Germany’s resources.
Just like that, huh? No stubborn Russians, no meddling from Hitler? Hmm...
Some desperate blacks arm themselves and prepare for war; a low-level civil war is soon under way in places.
LOL. You ought to be writing for Letterman. After all, somebody should.
The Japanese, perhaps unwisely, have been funding Philippine independence movements – the rebels never present a serious problem, but convince some Americans that operations west of Pearl Harbour should not be contemplated.
Be real. The U.S. had intended to give the P.I. independence before the war started; it was the Japanese invasion that screwed it up. There was no need for "independence movements" or "rebels". It wasn't Puerto Rico in the '70s.
the Germans react very strongly against it
When did Germany give a damn about Australia?
the Japanese make a quick agreement with the Nationalists, then strike hard at the communists. In the ensuring chaos, the Chinese Nationalists reluctantly accept a limited peace
Actually, it would be Chiang who would " strike hard at the communists", 'cause Japan honestly couldn't tell the difference. Neither would Chiang "reluctantly accept"; he considered Mao the greater threat.
some German units are permanently based in Mexico, and the Germans supply the Mexicans with additional weapons and support.
And this doesn't make the U.S. seriously consider turning Mexico into a parking lot why?
The timing of German success in obtaining their own atomic bomb
LOL. The Germans would get an atomic bomb on the second of never.
fortunately, this piece of madness is forestalled by the Finnish surrender.
[As pretty much happened in OTL.]
[The Germans had no match for the T-34 tank in OTL.]
[Historically, the Germans had to bail the Italians out of trouble; here, they don’t have to waste efforts and resources on a North African war. They also sat on their laurels far too much when it came to tank and antitank research.]
You really should refrain from stating the blindingly obvious. It suggests either you're stupid (which is bad), or you think we are (which is way worse).
 
Thoughts?
I seriously like it, although there is one thing I don't get: as much as I understand the role or Kriegsliener as "hitler's good sense", there seems to be too much good thinking in german high military circles, especially concerning their tech needs (long range bombers and so on). In OTL, the German High Command was made up of a bunch of assholes who didn't understand how to use armored divisions, and Blitzkrieg was rigged up by pretty much Guderian ignoring orders. So how come they all become reasonable, open-minded leaders?
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Do you realize that you are arguing with a BANNED member who can neither reply or even read your comments?


That makes him extremely convenient...

Wanna bet? Hitler wanted confusion & competition. It kept anybody from having too big a power base. It's the same reason Soviet leaders kept the Party, Army, & KGB at each other's throats all the time--to keep them away from his.



You're joking, right? These 2 would jointly plan & share (Top Secret!) information about as much as the U.S. & Iraq. They could barely stand each other.

That's extremely convenient.

Why? Because bombers aren't useful for anything?

When did RN suddenly have less antiship capability than Germany? OTL, I think Cuba had more.


Well, no. Not until they met the T-34. The response to "lessons of the war in the west" was upgunning the Pz4 with the 75mm L/43 & adding armor (which, BTW, begain to overwhelm the front suspension) & consider an L/70 or L/100 (too heavy for the suspension).

Really? OTL, Mussolini had everybody pretty well fooled...


Guess not.

What failures would those be, exactly?

When did rescuing a force in the face of an evidently disastrous situation constitute panic? IIRC, it was Gort who decided it, a correct decision IMO.

Without an attack on Pearl Harbor? In your dreams.

I suppose the U.S. just lies down for this?

If the U.S. has so much less leverage, why does Japan decide to attack anyhow? And if the Germans have persuaded the Brits & Dutch to be "co-operative", why does Japan have to? She's now able to "peacefully" get the resources she needs without U.S. interference. And given FDR loses the election (which I don't believe), & there's no Lend-Lease (ditto), Japan won't be so convinved of U.S.-British inseperability or the need to attack Pearl Harbor. Or is Yamamoto a moron TTL?:confused: (Of course, with IJA getting the lion's share of the credit for the Southern Operation, saving face might be necessary, but there's saved face & then there's seppuku...:confused:)

LOL.:confused::confused: American production capacity exceeded Germany, Italy, & Japan combined. (Probably Britain, too.) How does FDR lose the capacity to arrange Lend-Lease? Especially with Winston actually in Washington warning him personally how dire it is?

Neither would be welcome here at the time. Canada was beginning to feel independent. Bermuda, the Bahamas, Jamaica, maybe...

On what planet? King wouldn't have refused in his wildest dreams. (I'm less sure it was even technically possible at the time for a Commonwealth country. Or now, for all that.)

Not a chance. The Royals were extremely popular here then.

After they've left Britain in the lurch?

India had damn all reason to revolt. She knew she'd get her independence soon enough. Just like P.I. & U.S....

Stalin was bending over backwards to avoid provoking Hitler, sure he could prevent war. Why would he do something likely to start one

Why? He's suddenly a complete political nincompoop?
Resistance was minimal; German rule was actually not that bad
Tell that to the Russians who were being butchered routinely.

And Germany allowed this when? And why?:confused:

Why? USG feels threatened by a 3d-rate nation (Japan) 8000mi away?:confused:

Why?:confused: The Ozzies & New Zealanders were threatening to send soccer hooligans to sumo matches?

Let's see, the rivers are still in full flood, the roads are impassable muck, & Hitler is in charge. I forsee a disaster that makes Stalingrad look like a victory.

Fat bloody chance.

Brits numbered, what, a few hundred? French, maybe. Slavs Hitler considered sub-human (until the sub-human Russians had him on the ropes in '43...).

Sure. This is the same Japan which considered other Asians about as inferior as Hitler did Slavs, & (like the Germans) only recruited after things started getting desperate...

Y'know, that's getting really old. Hitler did more to save Moscow than the Siberians. And if they've arrived, the Germans have delayed long enough to be buggered anyhow.

After the brutal treatment of Russians following the invasion, I seriously doubt that. Sooner or later, the partisans will have their say. Presuming a new Russian government isn't created out of reach of Germany.

German industrial capacity wasn't sufficient for it, which is one reason von Kesselring opposed them.

Just like that, huh? No stubborn Russians, no meddling from Hitler? Hmm...

LOL. You ought to be writing for Letterman. After all, somebody should.

Be real. The U.S. had intended to give the P.I. independence before the war started; it was the Japanese invasion that screwed it up. There was no need for "independence movements" or "rebels". It wasn't Puerto Rico in the '70s.

When did Germany give a damn about Australia?

Actually, it would be Chiang who would " strike hard at the communists", 'cause Japan honestly couldn't tell the difference. Neither would Chiang "reluctantly accept"; he considered Mao the greater threat.

And this doesn't make the U.S. seriously consider turning Mexico into a parking lot why?

LOL. The Germans would get an atomic bomb on the second of never.



You really should refrain from stating the blindingly obvious. It suggests either you're stupid (which is bad), or you think we are (which is way worse).
 
Do you realize that you are arguing with a BANNED member who can neither reply or even read your comments?


It would be nice to have, somewhere, a list of banned members with the reason of the ban.... (might be it does exist at my ignorance?)
 
Do you realize that you are arguing with a BANNED member who can neither reply or even read your comments?



Calbear,

I don't think he cares. pacifichistorian seems to be on a one way mission through the board's archives, working backwards through time to resuscitate as many dead threads as possible.
 
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