To Prove A History Teacher Wrong

[LittleSpeer]

Today in class, my teacher was teaching World War 2 to the class and came to Pearl Harbor. He talked of the attack and how we were innocent Americans totally surprised by such a cruel, undeserved, and unprovoked attack. I preceded to argue in front of the whole class with my teacher for 15 minutes about how Roosevelt knew of the attack before and allowed it to happen to bring the United States into war. The only thing that stopped us was the class ending.

How much did Roosevelt know about the impending attack?
What are some good sources of useful information to show that there was just some foreknowledge?

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

FDR did not know about ahead of time, nor did anyone really, there were so many places upon which an attack could come that you could always try and guess but you can only fortify so many places with the best naval forces and anti-air equipment, a lot of military folks thought it would come at the Philippines, they were wrong.

Not trying to start a huge argument with you here but your teacher's in the right on this one.

 

[Emperor Norton I]

FDR did not know about ahead of time, nor did anyone really, there were so many places upon which an attack could come that you could always try and guess but you can only fortify so many places with the best naval forces and anti-air equipment, a lot of military folks thought it would come at the Philippines, they were wrong.

Not trying to start a huge argument with you here but your teacher's in the right on this one.

Si.

A better argument would have been that the United States did something to provoke Japanese ire. The oil embargo, which was not good for Japan, as well as Japanese fear the US would go to war with them soon regardless. It didn't excuse Japan's actions, but it does explain them better.

 

[Swan Station]

Arguing with a teacher in front of his class is risky. I hope you knew what you were doing.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Si.

A better argument would have been that the United States did something to provoke Japanese ire. The oil embargo, which was not good for Japan, as well as Japanese fear the US would go to war with them soon regardless. It didn't excuse Japan's actions, but it does explain them better.

Yeah, in my experience it's more of a "well here's the reasons they had for doing it" way that doesn't excuse Japan's attack (and it was most certainly pretty inexcusable) but at least makes the attack more understandable from the Japanese PoV, they had interests in the region, we threatened them, they needed us out of the way.

 

[LittleSpeer]

Si.

A better argument would have been that the United States did something to provoke Japanese ire. The oil embargo, which was not good for Japan, as well as Japanese fear the US would go to war with them soon regardless. It didn't excuse Japan's actions, but it does explain them better.

damn if you say so, i have to concede my point

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Arguing with a teacher in front of his class is risky. I hope you knew what you were doing.

Sometimes teachers have it coming, I had a friend who talked about a teacher of her class complaining about Obamacare stating that "I don't want to pay so that fat people can have more cheese on their cheese fries", normally I dismiss such sentiments as stereotypical right-wing dross and move on but I take exception if its a teacher in a class, especially considering she was saying it DURING the presentation my friend was making about Obamacare.

 

[Cook]

I preceded to argue in front of the whole class with my teacher for 15 minutes about how Roosevelt knew of the attack before and allowed it to happen to bring the United States into war...

How much did Roosevelt know about the impending attack?
What are some good sources of useful information to show that there was just some foreknowledge?

He didn’t and there aren’t any. The only sources you will find are conspiracy theorists who make it up as they go along.

The United States believed that Japan was about to attack the British Empire’s possessions in the Far East. They had no for warning of the attacks of Pearl or the Philippines because it was never mentioned in the diplomatic codes the Americans were deciphering and reading. The Americans believed Japan had in store for them a breaking off of diplomatic relations and at worst a possible attack on the Philippines.

Why would you argue strongly and at length regarding something you weren’t certain of and had no references for?

 

[LittleSpeer]

He didn’t and there aren’t any. The only sources you will find are conspiracy theorists who make it up as they go along.

The United States believed that Japan was about to attack the British Empire’s possessions in the Far East. They had no for warning of the attacks of Pearl or the Philippines because it was never mentioned in the diplomatic codes the Americans were deciphering and reading. The Americans believed Japan had in store for them a breaking off of diplomatic relations and at worst a possible attack on the Philippines.

Why would you argue strongly and at length regarding something you weren’t certain of and had no references for?

http://www.xtimeline.com/evt/view.aspx?id=709477
there is some merit to the allegation to argue some

 

[Swan Station]

Sometimes teachers have it coming, I had a friend who talked about a teacher of her class complaining about Obamacare stating that "I don't want to pay so that fat people can have more cheese on their cheese fries", normally I dismiss such sentiments as stereotypical right-wing dross and move on but I take exception if its a teacher in a class, especially considering she was saying it DURING the presentation my friend was making about Obamacare.

That's true, and that teacher would definitely have been out of bounds, deserving a stern talking to out of class.

But, there's still the issue that a teacher could have your future career in his hands, or at least the difference between a 3.7 and a 3.6 GPA (which could be a career breaker in some cases). Plus, there are the fellow students who were actually anticipating what was supposed to be taught during those fifteen minutes.

 

[LittleSpeer]

Plus, there are the fellow students who were actually anticipating what was supposed to be taught during those fifteen minutes.

im actually the only student that likes the class in the way of liking what would have been in those 15 minutes which is frankly sad in its own way but allows me to question the teacher every step of the way

 

[Swan Station]

im actually the only student that likes the class in the way of liking what would have been in those 15 minutes which is frankly sad in its own way but allows me to question the teacher every step of the way

Well, as long as you understood what you were doing.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

That's true, and that teacher would definitely have been out of bounds, deserving a stern talking to out of class.

But, there's still the issue that a teacher could have your future career in his hands, or at least the difference between a 3.7 and a 3.6 GPA (which could be a career breaker in some cases). Plus, there are the fellow students who were actually anticipating what was supposed to be taught during those fifteen minutes.

Oh yes, I feel that Mr. Speer is a bit more in the wrong here given that he kinda distracted with a massive conspiracy theory that was basically yesteryear's 9/11 trutherism (the government allowed it to happen versus the government orchestrated it, either way, the government is clearly in the role of the bad guy).

Also, 3.6 versus 3.7? Do tell, I'd be genuinely intrigued to see why any possible career would ever be that nitpicky (and somehow I am not surprised that they exist).

 

[LittleSpeer]

Oh yes, I feel that Mr. Speer is a bit more in the wrong here given that he kinda distracted with a massive conspiracy theory that was basically yesteryear's 9/11 trutherism (the government allowed it to happen versus the government orchestrated it, either way, the government is clearly in the role of the bad guy).

actually the only reason I had that opinion was something I read long ago on this site. I argued for the sake of proving that he shouldnt teach the class right out of the book and that the class should learn to at least question and critically think about history. This is not a fact I would defend to the death nor would it be if it was actually true.

 

[Swan Station]

Also, 3.6 versus 3.7? Do tell, I'd be genuinely intrigued to see why any possible career would ever be that nitpicky (and somehow I am not surprised that they exist).

(Off-topic: Okay, maybe not career breaker. It was more a fact of that single number moving me out of the top five in my class, and therefore disqualifying me for a certain really nice scholarship. However, it's cause had more to do with calculus than any arguing with a teacher.)

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

actually the only reason I had that opinion was something I read long ago on this site. I argued for the sake of proving that he shouldnt teach the class right out of the book and that the class should learn to at least question and critically think about history. This is not a fact I would defend to the death nor would it be if it was actually true.

I employ similar methods myself to get people to look at different perspectives on an issue (getting people to think about the role America has in fundamentalist Islam and its rise is a favorite of mine) but that said it's basically like saying that 9/11 was planned and (allowed to be) perpetrated by the Bush administration, there's a difference between getting people to think critically and distracting people with an absurd conspiracy theory.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

(Off-topic: Okay, maybe not career breaker. It was more a fact of that single number moving me out of the top five in my class, and therefore disqualifying me for a certain really nice scholarship. However, it's cause had more to do with calculus than any arguing with a teacher.)

Oh that sort of thing, yeah class rankings are what a good deal of colleges like too, but it's a big world of universities out there, some will worship you for achieving a coveted high ranking, others will roll their eyes and ask what else you have to contribute, philosophically I tend towards the latter .

That last part wasn't a dig against you by the way, just a dig about the college process.

 

[LittleSpeer]

I employ similar methods myself to get people to look at different perspectives on an issue (getting people to think about the role America has in fundamentalist Islam and its rise is a favorite of mine) but that said it's basically like saying that 9/11 was planned and (allowed to be) perpetrated by the Bush administration, there's a difference between getting people to think critically and distracting people with an absurd conspiracy theory.

Yes but I believe that planting at least a seed of doubt is the only way to the minds of the people that have little interest in History. Logical middle of the road arguments wont reach the kids in my class so I went to the far right of the spectrum so they will eventually end up in the middle of questioning history a little more then before.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

Yes but I believe that planting at least a seed of doubt is the only way to the minds of the people that have little interest in History. Logical middle of the road arguments wont reach the kids in my class so I went to the far right of the spectrum so they will eventually end up in the middle of questioning history a little more then before.

Been in history classes like that before, there are better ways to get people's attention, humor I've noticed is good if you're skilled at it.

 

[Cook]

Yes but I believe that planting at least a seed of doubt is the only way to the minds of the people that have little interest in History. Logical middle of the road arguments wont reach the kids in my class so I went to the far right of the spectrum so they will eventually end up in the middle of questioning history a little more then before.

No. All you were doing was wasting your class’s time and driving your teacher to drink.

Just suck it up, accept you were wrong and move on.