I mean, if Russia and Scandinavia became enemies it wouldn’t be the first or the last time that allies fell out over dividing the spoils from a war.
To be a Fox and a Lion - A Different Nordic Renaissance
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Hi all, thanks for the replies! It’s a great relief and very rewarding that so many of you are still following this timeline after so long. I can’t make any promises going forward as to when the next update is coming out, but I’m brainstorming possible subjects for chapter 33. There are still a lot of unanswered questions in Italy, the British Isles, Germany and Hungary to address. I might do a rather ‘superficial’ (at least according to this TL’s standards) overview of the conclusion of the War of the League of Windsor before returning to developments in the Northlands.
Interesting comparison! I imagine that the settlement of Netherlanders in the North will have a far deeper cultural effect on Denmark especially, than in OTL. As Jürgen mentioned, the OTL Dutch settlers of Amager became an ethnic enclave without much contact to “the motherland”, but IITL, Christian II’s legal reforms and dynastic ties to the Habsburg Netherlands might ensure a more nuanced Scandinavia outside of the purely German Kulturraum. The fact that the reformation is more Erasmian than Lutheran should also underline this development.
That is true, but to be honest, I honestly don’t think that the nordics will be able to amass much power projection on the continent. Currently, I’m imagining it more as a trade/naval war with Poland-Lithuania Russians slugging it out in the field.
I think it’s fascinating to contemplate more of these settlements actually surviving. Realistically speaking, most would probably still fail to take root, but even a slightly bigger impact would be quite the divergence from OTL.
Thank you for the kind words. I think you’re right that Christian II would use all the arms in his arsenal to crush the Hanse - and bring the estuaries of the Elbe and Weser under his thumb.
It’s a miracle!
A very probable development, given the fact that the Duke of Lauenburg has already been militarily castrated by Christian II ITTL and effectively only returned to his dukedom on account of the king and emperor’s mercy. So all things considered, the duke would be even more indebted ITTL as he had to buy back his lands from Christian and Charles. I’ll have to work this into one of the coming chapters
To be completely honest, after weeks of going through academic articles to determine early 16th century exports of Denmark, Norway and Sweden - Finland kinda took a backseat. I guess it could be symbolised by the timber icon on the map.
I agree with you on the Livonian position. My understanding is that the Order at this point of time was moribound and its dismantling a matter of when and not if.
Russia’s ambitions will become clearer in the coming updates, I promise I know that certain elements within Vasily’s court urged him to liberate Constantinople, but I don’t think even contemporaries thought it a plausible objective.
That is true, but one has to take into account that there’s a quite clear trajectory of cooperation in this timeline running along the lines of cordial relations. To me, it’s very interesting to consider how the moves made by Hans and Christian could have become something perceived today as an inevitable structural imperative.
I’m very happy that you liked it! There will be more, at least I can promise you that
Interesting comparison! I imagine that the settlement of Netherlanders in the North will have a far deeper cultural effect on Denmark especially, than in OTL. As Jürgen mentioned, the OTL Dutch settlers of Amager became an ethnic enclave without much contact to “the motherland”, but IITL, Christian II’s legal reforms and dynastic ties to the Habsburg Netherlands might ensure a more nuanced Scandinavia outside of the purely German Kulturraum. The fact that the reformation is more Erasmian than Lutheran should also underline this development.
That is true, but to be honest, I honestly don’t think that the nordics will be able to amass much power projection on the continent. Currently, I’m imagining it more as a trade/naval war with Poland-Lithuania Russians slugging it out in the field.
I think it’s fascinating to contemplate more of these settlements actually surviving. Realistically speaking, most would probably still fail to take root, but even a slightly bigger impact would be quite the divergence from OTL.
Thank you for the kind words. I think you’re right that Christian II would use all the arms in his arsenal to crush the Hanse - and bring the estuaries of the Elbe and Weser under his thumb.
It’s a miracle!
Regarding Livonia, I think much of that region’s future depends on developments in Russia as much as in the North.
A very probable development, given the fact that the Duke of Lauenburg has already been militarily castrated by Christian II ITTL and effectively only returned to his dukedom on account of the king and emperor’s mercy. So all things considered, the duke would be even more indebted ITTL as he had to buy back his lands from Christian and Charles. I’ll have to work this into one of the coming chapters
To be completely honest, after weeks of going through academic articles to determine early 16th century exports of Denmark, Norway and Sweden - Finland kinda took a backseat. I guess it could be symbolised by the timber icon on the map.
I agree with you on the Livonian position. My understanding is that the Order at this point of time was moribound and its dismantling a matter of when and not if.
Russia’s ambitions will become clearer in the coming updates, I promise
I know that certain elements within Vasily’s court urged him to liberate Constantinople, but I don’t think even contemporaries thought it a plausible objective.That is true, but one has to take into account that there’s a quite clear trajectory of cooperation in this timeline running along the lines of cordial relations. To me, it’s very interesting to consider how the moves made by Hans and Christian could have become something perceived today as an inevitable structural imperative.
Hey! I just binged this thread in a week, an I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed it and hope to see more in the future
I’m very happy that you liked it! There will be more, at least I can promise you that
The main reason for their survival on Amager from what I have read was that they had a monopoly on chalk extraction on Saltholm, the their daughter colonies on Sprogø and Frederiksberg, lacked this extra source of income and disappeared or assimilated. It‘s not impossible to imagine similar colonies elsewhere would get similar privileges.
Just a quick question for the readers - are there perchance any Czech (or failing that Slovak) speakers amongst the audience?
That is true indeed! I didn't know that there was a separate colony on Frederiksberg. A bit odd to compare that modern municipality with the Amager of today
That is true indeed! I didn't know that there was a separate colony on Frederiksberg. A bit odd to compare that modern municipality with the Amager of today
I am curious who Crown Prince Hans will be engaged too - I feel like the leading options are Mary Tudor, Madeleine Valois, or even Maria Hapsburg for a continuation of the familial ties. It's a shame that Vasilii doesn't have a daughter. Who Christian II decides to align with will have a significant impact on the Italian Wars and Northern Europe.
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I'm doing a Kalmar Union timeline as well, so this is relevant to me too.
The marriage prospects of Prince Hans are interesting to contemplate indeed, but of those you suggested, the first is a queen without a throne (for now at least), the second is French and I’m unsure which Habsburg you’re referring to for the third. I think Christian II would most likely look to at least obtain a marriage at least prestigious as his own for the Crown Prince of the North.
Am I the only one for whom economic and demographic updates like this are the most enjoyable to read? They add so much depth.
At least leave the poor Hanseans their salt..
At least leave the poor Hanseans their salt..
No, me too.
And you pointed to the one ressource monopoly they have -which needs to be broken.
Honestly, economic and demographic updates along with updates on institutions are the most satisfying. These three aspects make or break states, not battles. As I history enthousiast, these I love the most.
That's Wendish Hansa's only leverage. To be fair, Luneburg salt comes in too small quantities to proper service Scandinavia's needs. If I remember correctly by the 17th century it was used mostly as a "luxury" salt in comparison to the sea-salt from France or Iberia. But when a hostile power shuts the access to atlantic salt, then an alternative source, even in smaller quantities, is what keeps a very tough winter at bay.
Actually, this is one of the few timelines where I actively look forward to cultural and economic updates.
Perhaps Hans can take a Russian bride? If there isn't a Habsburg, the French are out and Mary is a mere claimant... who else has a title equal to Christian II? Doubt Sigismund would be amenable given the trade conflict...
And greater ties between the weird religious situation in the HRE and the original non-Papist high church in the east (they even have married clergy!) could be a interesting wrinkle...
And greater ties between the weird religious situation in the HRE and the original non-Papist high church in the east (they even have married clergy!) could be a interesting wrinkle...