TLIAW: The Unreformed Kingdom

[Thande]

As One Direction have split up today, I'm coming to the conclusion that Thande has voodoo powers.

EDIT: and the BBC has commissioned a costume drama about the Wentworth-Fitzwilliam family!

I scare myself sometimes.

One of the things that strikes me as interesting is how this "terrifyingly backwards" world is that there are bright spots, particularly on the Native American front. In today's Illinois there's really nothing in the way of a Native community, having been tore apart by Appalachian migrants, Jacksonian efforts and the Black Hawk War. But here, in this terribly illiberal world, the Illiniwek Confederation is still a thing, that has its own autonomous lands.

I assume other things that we think of as terrible now that were viewed as hallmarks of progressivism- hardcore nationalism and eugenics- also possibly don't exist in this world.

It's interesting to think about it, and shows how no society is black and white.

Yeah, that's a point I try to make in general: AH is rarely purely dystopic or purely utopic. Even in deliberate dystopias this applies with some spots brighter than OTL, e.g. Hungary in A World of Laughter, A World of Tears or Cambodia in Fear, Loathing and Gumbo.

By the way, bit of shameless advertising: if anyone isn't aware, one of my previous TLIAWs, The Curse of Maggie (about short-lived Japanese/Italian style British PM terms) is now available on Amazon for £3: http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Curse-Maggie-Tom-Anderson-ebook/dp/B012IY99HU

It comes with a new appendix listing PMs and party leaders as well as an original Forward and a bit of new content compared to the original.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Have to say, Thande, very well done. It is what it was trying to be.

I've been very interested in exploring the core of this idea - the stillbirth of "progress" in the reform sense, with other forms of human progress continuing unabated - for years. In fact it's the one AH question that's most continuously been on my radar since joining the site - I've been poking at the idea off and on since probably November of 2004.

I appreciate that the goal was to maximize recognizable history (the US exists, Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo....), while preventing sizable reform. It would be interesting to work out just how far back it would be necessary to go to get comparable results without resort to exaggerating the effect of Great Men in precisely one (ha) direction. Might be best to avert the American Revolution entirely, for example.

 

[Admiral Matt]

By the by, while I enjoyed the geographic incompetence of “Are you saying France isn’t on the way to Lincolnshire?” quite a bit, I felt I might be missing a reference.

Perhaps because I didn't pick up on who the narrator was talking to.

 

[Geordie]

By the by, while I enjoyed the geographic incompetence of “Are you saying France isn’t on the way to Lincolnshire?” quite a bit, I felt I might be missing a reference.

Perhaps because I didn't pick up on who the narrator was talking to.

The young man in question is our very own Mumby, who left an ah.com meetup in Birmingham, heading for Lincoln. Hilarity ensued, and Mumby spent part of the night sleeping in a hedge in Bradford.

 

[Admiral Matt]

The young man in question is our very own Mumby, who left an ah.com meetup in Birmingham, heading for Lincoln. Hilarity ensued, and Mumby spent part of the night sleeping in a hedge in Bradford.

Well, that's fairly impressive.

Visited a classmate earning a Master's in Bradford once. It seemed an okay town, I suppose, though I can't say I had much experience with the hedges.

 

[Jared]

I appreciate that the goal was to maximize recognizable history (the US exists, Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo....), while preventing sizable reform. It would be interesting to work out just how far back it would be necessary to go to get comparable results without resort to exaggerating the effect of Great Men in precisely one (ha) direction. Might be best to avert the American Revolution entirely, for example.

Perhaps a solution to that would be, rather than butterflying the ARW in general, have it come to a messy post-independence outcome. Either have a bloodier or more messed up ARW, or have the early leadership under the Articles of Confederation bollocked up to such a degree that universal suffrage and democracy is viewed as the road to disaster. Bonus points if a French Revolution of sorts still happens, but also ends up in a dystopic hell-hole.

 

[Thande]

I appreciate that the goal was to maximize recognizable history (the US exists, Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo....), while preventing sizable reform. It would be interesting to work out just how far back it would be necessary to go to get comparable results without resort to exaggerating the effect of Great Men in precisely one (ha) direction. Might be best to avert the American Revolution entirely, for example.

Perhaps a solution to that would be, rather than butterflying the ARW in general, have it come to a messy post-independence outcome. Either have a bloodier or more messed up ARW, or have the early leadership under the Articles of Confederation bollocked up to such a degree that universal suffrage and democracy is viewed as the road to disaster. Bonus points if a French Revolution of sorts still happens, but also ends up in a dystopic hell-hole.

One reason why I found reading about the Great Reform Act fascinating was that in many ways European society between 1815 and 1830 seemed to have this attitude of "Right, that French Revolution thing, that's like Star Trek V, it's an embarrassing interlude and we'll pretend it never happened and carry on as before". To my mind exemplified by the Hundred Thousand Sons of St. Louis in 1822. It wasn't until the July Revolution, the Belgian Revolution and the Great Reform Act that I think it became clear that the genie could not be crammed back into the bottle.

Because you're absolutely right--if you sit down with the goal of writing a reactionary timeline, the obvious thing to do is to avert (or at least change, as Jared says) the American and French revolutions. To an extent, I found it more interesting in this case to preserve that 1820s attitude of 'OK, that happened, but let's just brush over it'.

 

[Alex Richards]

One of the things that strikes me as interesting is how this "terrifyingly backwards" world is that there are bright spots, particularly on the Native American front. In today's Illinois there's really nothing in the way of a Native community, having been tore apart by Appalachian migrants, Jacksonian efforts and the Black Hawk War. But here, in this terribly illiberal world, the Illiniwek Confederation is still a thing, that has its own autonomous lands.

I assume other things that we think of as terrible now that were viewed as hallmarks of progressivism- hardcore nationalism and eugenics- also possibly don't exist in this world.

It's interesting to think about it, and shows how no society is black and white.

Thinking further afield, there's some very interesting thoughts to be had about ethnic and national relationships TTL. On the one hand, Jews are probably still restricted to Ghettos and subject to pogroms in various places, but on the other it feels likely that the concept of the ethno-nationalist state has been completely averted. We will still have the attitude that comes down to 'if you're loyal to the government, who cares what language you speak', though its companion of 'expel all the people of [Group X] from this area as they rebel too much'. A form of multiculturalism is probably the expected norm here- that while obviously those who are of the core ethno-religious cultural identity of a state are superior to all others, everyone else can have their place in society and certain groups may become highly accepted due to their loyalty/martial prowess etc.

This is a world in which the concept of there being any real difference between Czech and German speaking Bohemians is laughable and where the Serbs are a key element of the Austrian armed forces serving as Christianity's first bulwark against the Turk, but where the Slovaks are effectively ignored as a group of any consequence and the Hungarians are discriminated against for their rebellious tendencies...

All in all, absolutely fascinating and fantastic work on this Thande.

 

[B_Munro]

Perhaps a solution to that would be, rather than butterflying the ARW in general, have it come to a messy post-independence outcome. Either have a bloodier or more messed up ARW, or have the early leadership under the Articles of Confederation bollocked up to such a degree that universal suffrage and democracy is viewed as the road to disaster. .

Early partial breakup of the US, followed by reunion through Blood and Iron?

 

[ManintheField]

One of the things that strikes me as interesting is how this "terrifyingly backwards" world is that there are bright spots, particularly on the Native American front. In today's Illinois there's really nothing in the way of a Native community, having been tore apart by Appalachian migrants, Jacksonian efforts and the Black Hawk War. But here, in this terribly illiberal world, the Illiniwek Confederation is still a thing, that has its own autonomous lands.

I assume other things that we think of as terrible now that were viewed as hallmarks of progressivism- hardcore nationalism and eugenics- also possibly don't exist in this world.

It's interesting to think about it, and shows how no society is black and white.

The Founders envisioned a much more structured, careful settlement of the frontier with Indian interaction handled exclusively by the government and its agents. Most of them imagined assimilation as the end-game, but surviving Indian territories wouldn't be entirely impossible for them to conceive (as long as the Indians became essentially just like them).

This vision sank IOTL when the gentry group the Founders sprang from lost control of the government in the course of the 19th century and the nastier tendencies of majoritarian democracy set in. In an ATL where the gentry remain the leaders of the US, it's not hard to imagine their 'Enlightened' ideal of frontier settlement being the norm, instead.

 

[Johannes Parisiensis]

The Founders envisioned a much more structured, careful settlement of the frontier with Indian interaction handled exclusively by the government and its agents. Most of them imagined assimilation as the end-game, but surviving Indian territories wouldn't be entirely impossible for them to conceive (as long as the Indians became essentially just like them).

You means, as the Five Civilized Tribes were - private property, Christianity and slave-holding in some cases?

This vision sank IOTL when the gentry group the Founders sprang from lost control of the government in the course of the 19th century and the nastier tendencies of majoritarian democracy set in. In an ATL where the gentry remain the leaders of the US, it's not hard to imagine their 'Enlightened' ideal of frontier settlement being the norm, instead.

But, even if the homesteaders' pressure wouldn't be heard TTL, the plantation owners' hunger for land would have more bearing there, since cotton deplete the soils upon which it is cultivated.

 

[Thoresby]

You means, as the Five Civilized Tribes were - private property, Christianity and slave-holding in some cases?

Ever wondered why the were called Civilised?

 

[Daibhid C]

Just read this all the way through in one go because I couldn't stop. A really interesting timeline with some good points about how history works and lots of moments where I nearly fell off my chair. (I think my favourite one of those was possibly the throwaway line that Shirley Clarkson still makes TTL Paddingtons.)

 

[Thande]

A quick bump to say that The Unreformed Kingdom has now been published as part of Sea Lion Press' second tranche of books. Available on UK Amazon here for £2.99 and with links to other countries' Amazon mirrors on the SLP site here.

This edition has some edits and tweaks compared to the original thread version, as well as two all-new appendices explaining the real life historical inspirations for the Doncaster by-election and the wider history of the rest of the world. It also has a nifty cover designed by Lord Roem.

Please do also check out SLP's other books (including my previous work The Curse of Maggie) as there is some very fine writing from my colleagues as well.

 

[Faeelin]

My one regret is that those ebooks aren't available in hard copy at additional cost (although I understand why). My dad would love a lot of these things but hates computers.

 

[Utgard96]

My one regret is that those ebooks aren't available in hard copy at additional cost (although I understand why). My dad would love a lot of these things but hates computers.

I'm similar, though my disdain is limited to Amazon.

 

[Thande]

My one regret is that those ebooks aren't available in hard copy at additional cost (although I understand why). My dad would love a lot of these things but hates computers.

We have discussed the possibility of hard copy printing later on, but even if we did I suspect international distribution would be difficult.

 

[Michael Canaris]

Just bought it; thanks!

 

[Thande]

Just bought it; thanks!

No, thank you.

I am considering resurrecting TABAE and publishing it through this label, though I was only ever happy with the first book so I'd probably just publish that and then rewrite the rest from scratch.

 

[Michael Canaris]

I am considering resurrecting TABAE and publishing it through this label, though I was only ever happy with the first book so I'd probably just publish that and then rewrite the rest from scratch.

Please do! That's my second favourite of yours after LTTW.