TLIAW: Memorias de nuestros padres

Goldstein

Banned
There are two things I'm particularily enjoying about this. One I said already: the incremental effect of a more divided left and a more prominent PCE. It comes as natural due to the narrative style, and it's a bit hard to figure out, for one that doesn't know well the Transition, how some key issues were played differently, even in the most ovious aspects, like the UCD did a bit better than IOTL and the PCE did way better... that without entering in the autonomous and municipal landscapes, which make a world of difference in long term. I even don't know if AP did better or worse than IOTL, as its representation was reduced in 1979 as well, but I guess it's even worse due to the earlier dimision of Fraga.

The other one is the level of detail regarding historical figures. It's something I always love to find in your reflections about recent history. Figures like Fuentes Quintana, the members of the Grupo Tácito, the different factions of the UCD, are things I didn't know about until you brought them up. I guess I have no excuse, but it's always a pleasure to keep learning.

Also, this goes in line with my perception of the Transition and the years inmediately before it. Many people I've met seem to agree with the old bastard in that everything was tied and well tied, that the order and prominence of players were something fixed because of the circumstances and the power of the interests involved. But I beg to differ. I aknowlegde those interests, but to me, the late-Francoism and the Transition, much like the 1930's, were a gigantic Jonbar Point, a time ridled with opportunities for different outcomes. Doc's TLIAWOS, if tongue-in-cheek, was a superb and enjoyable example of this. This one, with a more serious approach, is no less enjoyable.

By all means, keep it up.
 
I concur with Goldstein. This is so well written that it is difficult to see the changes unless you have a good knowledge of the era, but the world it depicts is very familiar and yet beginning to change in unexpected directions.
 
I agrew with Goldstein and Dr. Strangelove plus the fact to see a 'stronger' UCD and a divided PSOE.

And having Fraga resigning and leaving the game just makes it perfect...:D
 
There are two things I'm particularily enjoying about this. One I said already: the incremental effect of a more divided left and a more prominent PCE. It comes as natural due to the narrative style, and it's a bit hard to figure out, for one that doesn't know well the Transition, how some key issues were played differently, even in the most ovious aspects, like the UCD did a bit better than IOTL and the PCE did way better... that without entering in the autonomous and municipal landscapes, which make a world of difference in long term. I even don't know if AP did better or worse than IOTL, as its representation was reduced in 1979 as well, but I guess it's even worse due to the earlier dimision of Fraga.

The other one is the level of detail regarding historical figures. It's something I always love to find in your reflections about recent history. Figures like Fuentes Quintana, the members of the Grupo Tácito, the different factions of the UCD, are things I didn't know about until you brought them up. I guess I have no excuse, but it's always a pleasure to keep learning.

Thanks, admittedly if I did proper academic research I could get further, which I plan on doing for the 80s, once things get way different. Especialy for economic matter and for TTL's divorce law. The biggest problem for me at the moment is knowing who'll succeed Carrillo TTL, or how the PCE might govern in Andalucia or Extremadura compared to how the PSOE did and just look into how the Transition plaid out in Galicia, Catalonia (beyond "uhh, Estatut, uhh Pujolisme") and in Euskadi.

As for Fraga, it's not a massive butterfly and I actually did not make it up. With OTL's results, Fraga did ponder whether to resign or not. After all, in 1977 he tried hardline democrat and failed and in 1979 he tried to play the 'more right-wing than UCD but not a Silva Muñoz, much less a Blass Piñar" and it also failed.

Indeed, the municipal side of things is one that worries me. Madrid and Barcelona are going to be rather different. Tamames was important for Tierno Galván, and probably quite a few of their measures will be similar (demolishing the scalextric de Atocha, improving social services, laxer cultural norms, etc.) but then we'll miss the Alcalde Presidente's pregones and the 'coloquense y al loro' speeches.

Also, this goes in line with my perception of the Transition and the years inmediately before it. Many people I've met seem to agree with the old bastard in that everything was tied and well tied, that the order and prominence of players were something fixed because of the circumstances and the power of the interests involved. But I beg to differ. I aknowlegde those interests, but to me, the late-Francoism and the Transition, much like the 1930's, were a gigantic Jonbar Point, a time ridled with opportunities for different outcomes. Doc's TLIAWOS, if tongue-in-cheek, was a superb and enjoyable example of this. This one, with a more serious approach, is no less enjoyable.

By all means, keep it up.

Indeed. Considering the huge amount of problems faced by Spain in the 70s, ranging from the political (duh), the economic (inflation, unemployment, balance of payments), social and regional (bombing was not just ETA's patrimony) and military (Galaxia, 23F, plans after 1982), the idea that somehow, what happened was neatly laid down is rather silly, although I think it is exacerbated by the hagiographic version that we have of the Transition. There were many players, many interests, many discrepancies and differences that had to be either accommodated or neutralised. Quoting Suárez, "cambiar las cañerías sin cortar el agua" is a difficult thing. Admittedly, the premise of this project is perhaps not the most realistic, since the PSOE was deeply dissatisfied with Llopis by 1969, but besides that I'm trying to create a world that resembles ours. As Dr. Strangelove put it, there is no felipismo, but there's Bibi Andersen, Lola Flores' "si me queréis, irse" or Almodóvar & Macnamara. All under the watch of a series of grey politicians who are just as grey as the upper echelons of the bureaucracy (an interesting aside, there's no 1984 law to allow for the free designation of civil servants, which means the bureaucracy will remain more old school, but also less politicised). That being said, there won't be a Rajoy PM.

I concur with Goldstein. This is so well written that it is difficult to see the changes unless you have a good knowledge of the era, but the world it depicts is very familiar and yet beginning to change in unexpected directions.

Thanks. Indeed, this world is slowly departing from our own. In the political sphere, a major butterfly will come with TTL's very different LOREG.

I agrew with Goldstein and Dr. Strangelove plus the fact to see a 'stronger' UCD and a divided PSOE.

And having Fraga resigning and leaving the game just makes it perfect...:D

Thank you. Hehe, Fraga does resign. Now, he did love power and politics so we may not have heard the last of him (or maybe we have, I haven't planned what to do with him exactly).
By the way...

What is Carlos Alonso Zaldívar doing right "now"?

I honestly had to look him up. But TTL's he's a PCE deputy for Álava, very much on the right of the party's right-wing, so perhaps a harbinger of the socialdemocratisation of the party under Carrillo.
 
With the UCD shifting to the centre-right, what will happen to its left wing? Will they stay or move to the PSP/FPS?
 
I was going to write about what was going to happen with the various left-wing forces across Spain tonight. Instead, I'm going to write about TTL's very, very different television. Dan mentioned it, and then I discovered two very fun facts from where I'll do a lot.
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Llegó la era televisada
It is interesting that Spain, a country which would not receive colour television until 1976 was to be amongst the very first European countries to develop a network of national private television channels. It is perhaps most ironic that it was the same reason which delayed the adoption of Telefunken over its French rival as the one which allowed for the passing of a decree-law permitting the establishment of private channels: Internal disputes in Government. Whereas it was the politicisation of colour television between the Opus Dei and their azules opponents which retarded its introduction until after the death of Franco and the start of the Suárez government, it would the disputes between the UCD's left and right during the first Calvo Sotelo Government (1981-82) which allowed for the enactment of the decree-law authorising the establishment of private channels following the decision by the Constitutional Court on the 31 March 1982 (1) decreeing that it would be possible under the Constitution to create ones, provided government authorisation. Nowadays this is an integral part of Spain's 1980s cultural revolution, or 'la movida', but as usual in popular history, this is just too limited a view, and perhaps it would be best too see it in a more cynical light, as a decision taken through murmurs and whispers in the corridors of the Congress or amidst fierce debates in the Council of Ministers.

But it was not the only main decision taken during the First Legislature (1979-83) regarding television. Indeed, the Fourth Suárez Government passed on January 1980 the new Statute of Radio and Television, which laid down the new basis for the operation of RTVE, the public and (at the time) sole television operator in Spain, with also radio services, although in this market it did face competition from private stations. What is perhaps most interesting, beyond the typical legal minutiae or its politicised method of governance (2), is that it provided for the creation of a third public channel or 'autonomic channel' (3). The mission of this particular channel would be quite similar to that of France 3, that is to provide region-specific programming and channels. This particular channel had been much sought for by the executives of TVE Cataluña, who sought to establish a Catalan branch of TVE that would provide information and service in Catalan. The decision of the Government to establish this channel (4), known as La 3 (La Tercera) would be fiercely contested by the new autonomic regions, and in particular by Jordi Pujol, which had sought to create their own channels and believed it to fall within their competencies. As a compromise, although the channel would be created and it would be ultimately directed from Madrid, the regions would have a say regarding the content played in their own region. As a result, from that moment on, TVE would offer programmes of regional politics or regional culture, traditions or folklore, or even (at least in Catalonia), their own series in Catalan, Basque or Galician. Later on, programmes to promote bable (Asturias), Aragonese, Valencian or castúo (Extremadura) would be established.

After the death of the last Suárez Government, the Calvo Sotelo Government would, as mentioned in the first paragraph, permit the creation of two private television stations as a result of internal struggles. To understand why this happened, and why it happened so early on compared to other European countries, it is necessary to mention Javier Godó, president of La Vanguardia, one of Spain's leading right-wing newspapers (5) and of Antena 3 FM. Although their first attempt to get the acceptance of the government in early 1982 was rejected over the informal veto of Fernández Ordóñez, it did not stop them. Godó would contact Pío Cabanillas Sr. in June and July. The Minister would introduce the project again to his colleagues on 4 August 1982. The result, after a narrow vote and important misgivings from the party's left would that the Government would pass a decree-law authorising the creation and regulation of the waves for the establishment of a limited amount of private channels, for the time being only two would find sufficient resources.

The first group to court the Government successfully was Javier Godó's own Antena 3. Godó, who owned La Vanguardia, in exchange of receiving the support and authorisation of the Government to form the first private television channel in Spain would become a more docile press agent vis-à-vis the Government, whereas it would distance itself somewhat from the Generalitat precisely because of that, even if it remained the main newspaper for Barcelona's bourgeois élite. However, it was not possible to only authorise one channel, and particularly just one from the right-wing, which could antagonise the country and the opposition in a period close to elections. As a result, the Government also approached the two principal editorial groups on the left in Spain, the Grupo Z, owner of El Periódico de Cataluña and Interviú, Spain's foremost magazine mixing politics with naked ladies, and the Grupo PRISA, owner of El País, Spain's main left-wing and most prestigious newspaper. By 1983, of the two groups, and after an unsuccessful bid from the Grupo Z, the winning one would be PRISA, which would form Sogetel. The third main private channel in Spain would have to wait until Diario 16's Juan Tomás de Salas proposed the Government to create a new channel in 1987.

As a result from 1982-83 dealings, by 1984, the television market in Spain stood apart from that of other European countries as it was formed by three public stations (La 1, La 2 and La 3), Antena 4 (Godó's channel) and Canal 5 (Grupo PRISA's channel). In 1987, Diario 16, with the support from Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation would create TV6.
Notes:
(1) This is OTL.
(2) The Consejo de Administración is chosen half by the lower chamber and half by the upper, by 2/3 majorities in each case. The Director, however is picked by the Government at will, with the sole condition of previously hearing to the recommendation (non-binding) of the Consejo de Administración.
(3) This is OTL.
(4) OTL the Government was marred by internal conflict, and it was in no position to fight with the nascent autonomies over this. TTL, the Government is in a (slightly) stronger position, so it does. Also, rule of cool, people.
(5) Alongside Diario 16 and ABC, of course.​
 
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With the UCD shifting to the centre-right, what will happen to its left wing? Will they stay or move to the PSP/FPS?

The UCD is shifting. But it shifts slowly, and there's always sufficient ministries to please Fernández Ordóñez and his followers. In any case, as the saying goes, the UCD's social democrats were rabanillos, 'red on the outside, white on the inside and always close to the butter' and without a serious -moderate- alternative (for the time being) to the UCD, they'll stick with the party and try to shift it leftwards, which they'll manage after the premiership of Alzaga, in the late 80s.
 
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I'm afraid I don't know what you mean
FORTA is the organization of regional public broadcasters in Spain. Since you've changed the structure of the Spanish public television (TVE) in this scenario, I wonder how the newscasts in La 3 channels would cover national and international news as well, like in for example, Televisió de Catalunya.
 
So, do people ITTL watch The Simpsons in Antena 4 during lunch? :D

It is interesting that the lack of independent regional stations leads to a greater diversity thereof and to bable, extremaduran and aragonese getting greater recognition.

For reference IOTL private channels didn't arrive to Spain until 1990.
 
Very interesting. Between Spain adopting SECAM and the very different take for RTVE and the private channels, you managed to do a great job with that. One quick question - In OTL, RNE's Ràdio 4 channel was initially a minority language channel covering those languages in what would be the original autonomous communities (Galicia, the Basque Country, Catalonia) as well as a regional service for Andalusia; eventually, during the '80s, Ràdio 4 was limited to Catalonia while everyone else got Radio 5 Todo Noticias. Would Ràdio 4 still function in its original format under this scenario in TTL, expanding as per La 3 on television?

In any case, I want more of the UCD/PCE rivalry. :p
 
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Extract from "Socialism in Spain: A historical analysis" by Josep Munté

As a general rule of the thumb, it is the far left of politics which is more disorganized than its more moderate, social-democratic counterparts on the centre-left. Curiously, and despite the disappearance of many of the various left-wing parties that had existed prior to the elections of 1977 and 1979, which consolidated the party system, at the regional level, the so-called sopa de letras of social-democratic parties continued. That is not to say that there weren't divisions within the Communist camp. To the left of the PCE existed various Maoist parties, such as ORTE or the PTE, which claimed to represent true communism and called for a cultural revolution in the idealised manner present in many parties of this kind at the time. (1) Furthermore, after the struggles within the PCE's main factions (carrillistas, afganos and leninistas), the so-called afganos (2) would form their own splinter party, the PCPE.

At the national level, only Tierno Galvan's FPS, Felipe González's PS and Rodolfo Llopis's PSOE were represented in Parliament in 1977, and by 1979, Llopis had lost his seat, and hence the historical party of the moderate left vanished from the national parliamentary left, although it would retain representation at the municipal and at the regional level in the Basque Country until its merger with the PCE. The other two main forces after 1979 were the PS, which could be considered as the more relatively more right-wing of the two, and hence more likely to establish bridges with the social democrats within the UCD and the FPS, which stood somewhere in between the UCD and the PCE, and which, for instance managed to reconcile governing locally with the PCE with supporting the UCD governments after 1987 election, although on this it was quite helpful the good relationship between the UCD's Pedro Solbes and José Bono from the FPS.

The more problematic situation presented itself, instead, at the regional level and in particular in Catalonia, where the left-wing opposition had been quite strong and where Catalanism and left-wing politics did not necessary ran in parallel, like in Galicia, nor against each other, like in the Basque Country, but rather were intertwined in a complex network of small parties. For instance, before the 1980 election, beyond the PSUC (which also had both Catalanist and anti-Catalanist members), there was a myriad of Catalanist and non-Catalanist (or even anti-Catalanist, like the PSA) centre-left parties. It would perhaps be most interesting to name a few, to put things in perspective. Besides the PS's Catalan Federation, there was Convergència Socialista de Catalunya (itself the result of the merger between the original CSC, alongside the PPC, the PSC-ex-Reagrupament and some socialist ERC members), the PSA, the PSC-Reagrupament (later on Moviment Socialista de Catalunya) and ERC. To some degree this differences between the parties were reduced, especially after the merger of PSA with the PS' Catalan federation, but they seemed most important given the very reduced electoral space that social democracy had in Catalonia, where the Communists were, even moreso than in the rest of Spain, the hegemonic party on the left. However, by 1980, the consolidation that took place across Spain also affected Catalonia: The CSC and parts of the PSC-R, led by Joan Reventós would become a part of the PSP-led Federación de Partidos Socialistas. The MSC (previously PSC-R) would disperse, divided in its loyalties and some members would join CiU, ERC, the PS or the CSC. As a result, on the occasion of the first regional elections since 1934, the left-wing was composed of (in order from least to most Catalanist) PS-PSA, PSUC, CSC and ERC.

In the Basque Country, the divisions were deeper and certainly more dramatic, as they took place under the watchful eye of ETA and the conflict in the region that pitted the Government, ETA and a series of far-right groups, that were probably helped by elements within the police and the Armed Forces. Charcteristic of this time was the political violence of ETA against civil figures, such as Jaime Mayor Oreja, and leader of the UCD in Guipúzcoa at the time, who was almost killed by ETA (3). Besides the PCE, quite weak in the region and suffering from a rift between Basquists (Roberto Lertxundi) and non-Basquists (Ramón Ormazabal), there were EE (4) (associated with ETApm), HASI (associated with ETAm) (5), the PSE and the PSOE. Alongside them, there was a large number of minor parties of the Basque radical left type (6), that together with HASI (after the expulsion of more moderate members) would go to form Herri Batasuna, which to this day remains the main force of the Basquist left.

The PCE and the PSE would fight for the same electorate, the non-Basque-speaking, usually of immigrant background industrial worker in the large industrial towns or cities of the Basque Country, and particularly of Biscay. EE would however find itself in a more complicated position, trying to walk the thin line between HB and the non-Basquist parties, as an option of moderate left-wing Basque nationalism. As it turned out, although the party was relatively successful given the circumstances of political polarisation present in the Basque Country, the party would end up merging with the renamed PCE in 1992 to form the new post-communist outfit in the region.

In Galicia, a similar story took place. Besides the PCG, quite weak in the region and the PS' federation, there was a series of parties that brought together social democracy (like the PSG) or more radical socialism (such as UPG and ANPG) and Galician nationalism. One strange particularity of this mixture of nationalism and left-wing politics was the strength of Maoist parties in Galicia, which manage to win one seat in the 1981 regional election, one of the rare occasions in which a party to the left of the PCE ever managed to win representation. That is not to say that Galician nationalism was the patrimony of the left, as "Galicianism" was also a core component of the centrist-nationalist Partido Galeguista and of the autonomist factions of the UCD, Galicia's undisputable party of power.

In Valencia, where the conflict between pan-Catalanist Valencian nationalism and anti-Catalan Valencian regionalism was a key feature of the bitter political struggle (7) between the PCE, siding with the former intellectual current and the UCD, siding with the former alongside minor right-wing groups such as Unió Regional Valenciana, there was also a large number of small parties that sided with the Fusterian (pan-Catalan) side of the identity conflict, and which gravitated closer to the thesis of the PCPV and which would later merge into the Partit Socialista del País Valencià, which would form a core part of Tierno Galván's FPS. However, not all the forces merged into the PSPV, with a few, more nationalist than social-democrat forces forming Unitat del Poble Valencià in 1981, a relatively important political player (8) in the post-Cold War politics of the Valencian region.​
Notes:
(1) That is to say, that they had no freaking idea of what was going in Mao's China, and rather relied on a disturbingly utopian vision of it.
(2) I'll allow the readers of the TLIAWOS to figure out why a pro-Moscow section of the PCE was nicknamed "the Afghans".
(3) OTL. Mayor Oreja, who was the nephew of Foreign Affairs Minister, Marcelino Oreja, was almost killed by ETA in 1980. The story is a fun one: ETA throws grenade at his office from a car, the grenade hits a street light and bounces into the air, where it explodes without even hurting him. And that's how basebomb was created :p
(4) Euzkadiko Ezkerra. OTL it would later merge with the PSE to form the PSE-EE of our days.
(5) Herri Alderdi Sozialista Iraultzailea. HASI means '(to) begin' in Basque. They were the nastier of the two, as befits the group associated with the nastier of the two ETA groups.
(6) The term abertzale will not become as popular TTL as it has OTL. Terms like zulo though...
(7) And by bitter, we mean 'bombing stuff'. See: Batalla de Valencia
(8) Sort of a centrist URV.

 
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So, do people ITTL watch The Simpsons in Antena 4 during lunch? :D

It is interesting that the lack of independent regional stations leads to a greater diversity thereof and to bable, extremaduran and aragonese getting greater recognition.

For reference IOTL private channels didn't arrive to Spain until 1990.

Si no existieran los Simpsons, tendríamos que inventarlos. So yes, even if they predate the PoD, they will exist. And who knows, maybe it'll be Antena 4 or Canal 5. After all, without the Berlusconian approach to television so characteristic of Telecinco (blame González's friendship with Berlusconi's "socialist" political mentor, Craxi for that) it might very well be that Canal 5 will play them. But I couldn't deny my TTL mozalbete from the wonderful experience.

Yes, for instance, Pujol's original intent was to create a folkloric TV3, but his left-wing hand-picked director for it wanted a proper TV, which proved the right thing in the long-term. The regional TV will have this more folkloric approach, more like CyL's TV than TV3 or Telemadrid (which try to be generalist channels), so there'll ofc be a promotion of regional identities through them to the possible degree.

And indeed, TTL, private television arrives much earlier. We'll see how that affects future corruption scandals.

FORTA is the organization of regional public broadcasters in Spain. Since you've changed the structure of the Spanish public television (TVE) in this scenario, I wonder how the newscasts in La 3 channels would cover national and international news as well, like in for example, Televisió de Catalunya.

Ah, alright. I do wonder myself. I suppose they will be politicized to a lesser degree than OTL (or rather in a different manner than OTL) but I couldn't say much more. There's a 1983 law about the organization of the 3rd channel which passed but was never implemented. I'll check it and come back to you.

Very interesting. Between Spain adopting SECAM and the very different take for RTVE and the private channels, you managed to do a great job with that. One quick question - In OTL, RNE's Ràdio 4 channel was initially a minority language channel covering those languages in what would be the original autonomous communities (Galicia, the Basque Country, Catalonia) as well as a regional service for Andalusia; eventually, during the '80s, Ràdio 4 was limited to Catalonia while everyone else got Radio 5 Todo Noticias. Would Ràdio 4 still function in its original format under this scenario in TTL, expanding as per La 3 on television?

In any case, I want more of the UCD/PCE rivalry. :p

Oh no, Spain still uses PAL (did I screw up by mentioning Telefunken?). Thanks.

As for your question, I suppose that Radio 4 would indeed exist and play a similar role as La 3.
 
Oh no, Spain still uses PAL (did I screw up by mentioning Telefunken?). Thanks.

You did mention Telefunken and that it was rejected, yes. Not that that would be a bad thing (it wouldn't, as East Germany and Greece demonstrated as did much of the Middle East and North Africa).

As for your question, I suppose that Radio 4 would indeed exist and play a similar role as La 3.

Excellent. Gracias.
 
You did mention Telefunken and that it was rejected, yes. Not that that would be a bad thing (it wouldn't, as East Germany and Greece demonstrated as did much of the Middle East and North Africa).

My bad, I meant delayed, not prevented. Wrong wording :eek:

Excellent. Gracias.

You're welcome. Honestly, while interesting, this area is far from my forte.
 
My bad, I meant delayed, not prevented. Wrong wording :eek:

That's OK. It would be interesting to see more countries adopt SECAM and/or solve some of the problems the French didn't foresee with the standard. Oh well.

You're welcome. Honestly, while interesting, this area is far from my forte.

I understand - for most people, they prefer not to be bothered so they come up with something cliché. At least you presented a very Spanish solution which seems plausible and can work.

As for the recent update - colour me surprised that things were that bad on the Left, even when comparing it to OTL (the Battle of Valencia being the most obvious example).
 
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