TLIAPOT

[Blair]

What is this suppose to be?​

A timeline where this guy becomes president.

So I can expect a well researched TL on post-war Germany?

Well actually this is a US-centric TL…

Wait. Your title has the word "Germany" in it but you're going to focus on the US?

Yes.

… is this thing at least original?

Actually it's re-write of my Special Delivery series from Alternate Wikipedia Infoboxes III... but with a better backstory!

So anyone who has already seen that series can just ignore the first, like, five posts of this TL?

Completely new stuff will be posted here too!

TLIAPOT?

Timeline In A Period Of Time

You stole that abbreviation didn't you?

Yep.

So we can't expect regular updates?

Nope.

Any chance I can stop you from starting this trainwreck?

Nope.

Then get on with it.

Yay!

 

[Blair]

Prologue
​

Too many people here and in England hold the view that the German people as a whole are not responsible for what has taken place – that only a few Nazis are responsible. That unfortunately is not based on fact. The German people must have it driven home to them that the whole nation has been engaged in a lawless conspiracy against the decencies of modern civilization.
- President Franklin D. Roosevelt (OTL)

June 30, 1945
​

It was a late night at the White House and President Truman was working overtime to fill the shoes of his illustrious predecessor. His staff had long gone home, as had the construction team sent to work on the much needed West Wing addition. [1] The building creaked and moaned all throughout the night, years of neglect had taken their toll on the aging structure. [2] The building had such a reputation for surliness that the president paid it no mind when the panels above him began to groan. "Just you and me here Franklin" [3] Truman muttered to himself just moments before the chandelier above his head snapped lose and struck him with such force that he blacked out. Henry Morgenthau, next in the line of presidential succession, was sworn in as the 34th President of the United States the following morning… [4]

Footnotes
[1] Truman bungled getting the funds appropriated for his requested renovation IOTL. He was later able to get the Truman Balcony approved, the construction of which revealed the extent of the White House's disrepair. ITTL his earlier project is approved and the commotion surrounding the construction causes the unfortunate incident above.

[2] IOTL the White House was a mess. Bess Truman wrote of "swaying" chandeliers that threatened to break lose at any moment, a decorative killer being located in the oval office and blue room among other locations. On one occasion, Margaret Truman's Grand Piano nearly fell through the ceiling of the first family's dinning room. President Truman also recounted a time when he was taking a bath and the tub began to sink into the floor. Truman feared that he might have tumbled into the room below, where the First Lady was hosting the Daughters of the American Revolution, wearing "nothing but my reading glasses."

[3] Truman jokingly complained about being carried off into the night by ghosts, such was the frequency at which the building produced "ghostly" noises.

[4] Both IOTL and ITTL Henry Morgenthau was next in line at the time.

[5] Click for the next update.

 

[Baconheimer]

Interesting, please continue...

 

[Indicus]

Oh shit.

 

[Gonzo]

Interesting; plus a Jewish President...

 

[TRH]

Fabulous, let me guess where this is going; Morgenthau implements his plan, which kills millions if not tens of millions of Germans. The anti-imperialist Henry Wallace wing of the Democratic Party deplores this, saying that it makes us no better than the Nazis, causing the Party to split. The Republicans take back Congress in 1946 and the White House in 1948 (the '48 Democratic nomination will be a mess, I have no idea who would get the nod then), and instead of fixing foreign policy like the voters want, they just decide to murder the New Deal instead. In the meantime, we've got low-level guerilla resistance in West Germany which the Soviets are exacerbating and, well, things just keep getting worse from there. Also, Churchill was the biggest opponent of the Morgenthau Plan, so our new President is sure to alienate our European allies in the process and we'll probably have been kicked off the Continent by 1960 or so.

Any of that sound right?

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Interesting; plus a Jewish President...

That is what makes this implausible. America was WAY too anti-semitic to vote for a Jewish president at that time.

 

[Gonzo]

Wasn't Churchill supportive, but Eden was in opposition to the proposal?

 

[TRH]

That is what makes this implausible. America was WAY too anti-semitic to vote for a Jewish president at that time.

Nobody has to vote for him, and he for sure won't win re-election, though.

Wasn't Churchill supportive, but Eden was in opposition to the proposal?

He signed onto a watered-down version in exchange for Lend-Lease, but otherwise didn't want England chained to a dead Germany, as he put it. That said, Eden's opposition was more important in terms of actually killing the idea. And I guess the real question is what Labour thinks of it; I can't imagine them being any more fond of it.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Fabulous, let me guess where this is going; Morgenthau implements his plan, which kills millions if not tens of millions of Germans. The anti-imperialist Henry Wallace wing of the Democratic Party deplores this, saying that it makes us no better than the Nazis, causing the Party to split. The Republicans take back Congress in 1946 and the White House in 1948 (the '48 Democratic nomination will be a mess, I have no idea who would get the nod then), and instead of fixing foreign policy like the voters want, they just decide to murder the New Deal instead. In the meantime, we've got low-level guerilla resistance in West Germany which the Soviets are exacerbating and, well, things just keep getting worse from there. Also, Churchill was the biggest opponent of the Morgenthau Plan, so our new President is sure to alienate our European allies in the process and we'll probably have been kicked off the Continent by 1960 or so.

Any of that sound right?

Remember IOTL when the Morgenthau Plan was revealed in 1944? The US public freaked out and FDR quickly backtracked. I think the public would pressure Morgenthau so much that he wouldn't dare do his plan and if he tried he'd be impeached:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan#Rejection_of_the_plan

Not only that, but the economy of Europe depended on Germany, so like IOTL after elements of the de-industrialization plan were started by the 'morgenthau-ists' the economic consequences of that muted policy forced a drastic revision because Britain and France couldn't really economically recover without the German market.

 

[TRH]

Remember IOTL when the Morgenthau Plan was revealed in 1944? The US public freaked out and FDR quickly backtracked. I think the public would pressure Morgenthau so much that he wouldn't dare do his plan and if he tried he'd be impeached:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan#Rejection_of_the_plan

Yes, but I also never saw any indication that Morgenthau cared about opposition to his plan, and it's probably not an impeachable offense, so I'm not so sure he'd be impeached. There might be an attempt, but, well, Americans are a naturally vengeful people, so I could see him survive through a mix of Democratic and Republican votes. It would only make internal tensions within the Democratic Party worse, of course.

Not only that, but the economy of Europe depended on Germany, so like IOTL after elements of the de-industrialization plan were started by the 'morgenthau-ists' the economic consequences of that muted policy forced a drastic revision because Britain and France couldn't really economically recover without the German market.

Also true, which is why I expect schisms within the WAllied powers. The issue is that America has enough power over the others that Morgenthau could use aid/the threat of withdrawing from the Continent altogether as a carrot and stick to bludgeon them into acquiescence. It's not that I expect this to be a stable/workable arrangement, and a lot depends on who becomes President in 1948, but it could last long enough to ruin Germany for generations.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Yes, but I also never saw any indication that Morgenthau cared about opposition to his plan, and it's probably not an impeachable offense, so I'm not so sure he'd be impeached. There might be an attempt, but, well, Americans are a naturally vengeful people, so I could see him survive through a mix of Democratic and Republican votes. It would only make internal tensions within the Democratic Party worse, of course.

Not really. Very few people supported wiping the Germans out, the Nuremberg trials were set up to differentiate between the Nazi government and German people, and the attitudes of the soldiers on the ground rapidly changed from anger and hatred to pity and compassion for the German people. Unfortunately they actually got very anti-semitic and angry toward the DPs in Germany, who they saw as the source of crime and disorder and American military authorities got very alarmed how sympathetic the average soldier was toward the Germans within months after the war was over.
This book does a good job describing the situation post-war in the American zone. It shows how frustrated the army was with the DPs and concentration camp survivors that were taking revenge on the German civilians and how they came to side with the Germans in fact: https://www.amazon.com/Endkampf-Sol...dp/0813134617?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

Also true, which is why I expect schisms within the WAllied powers. The issue is that America has enough power over the others that Morgenthau could use aid/the threat of withdrawing from the Continent altogether as a carrot and stick to bludgeon them into acquiescence. It's not that I expect this to be a stable/workable arrangement, and a lot depends on who becomes President in 1948, but it could last long enough to ruin Germany for generations.

The problem is that Morgenthau is not a dictator as president. Just as FDR was forced to back down on the Mogenthau plan public and administration/congressional resistance would check him. The army even could just refuse to implement his plans, which given the general attitudes toward Jews in the US public and military at the time, it is very likely that there will be a refusal to implement orders from a Jewish president that were putative to Germany, even if they would have done them for a gentile president. It isn't a given that Morgenthau would be able to get anything done really in terms of putative actions in Europe due to the resistance by more than just his political rivals, but people with all sorts of problems with him personally, from the anti-semitic, to the principled. Even enough Democrats could be willing to work with the GOP to remove him via impeachment on any sort of charge they think they could get away with, especially as he wasn't elected and if they think the public hates him enough. IIRC when FDR was doing Gallup polling to figure out what propaganda to use against the Nazis during WW2 they found that anti-semitism was so rampant that pushing the atrocities against the Jews as a reason to fight the Nazis would actually backfire as there were shocking numbers of people that might actually sympathize with the Nazis over it. Despite the US public reviling the German-American Bund for their fascism, there was a lot of people that liked aspects of their racism. Morgenthau would have a very hard time surviving in office, let alone getting much of his policies in Europe implemented.

 

[TRH]

Now that I think about it, no matter how unpopular Morgenthau gets (and I certainly agree with wiking that there's no way he could be a popular president), the Republicans have no incentive to impeach him. As soon as he's out of office, the Democrats can start papering over their internal divisions again, and not have to deal with an insurgency from the Wallace wing of the Party. Ergo, keeping him in office makes the divisions more apparent and gives the Republicans an advantage. Their line could be something like, "With two presidents dying in the same year, there's been too many disruptions already to the chain of command. We can hold a special election to choose a new President, but otherwise, we should stick to the commander in chief that we have. To do otherwise would be Congressional overreach into the doings of the executive branch".

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Now that I think about it, no matter how unpopular Morgenthau gets (and I certainly agree with wiking that there's no way he could be a popular president), the Republicans have no incentive to impeach him. As soon as he's out of office, the Democrats can start papering over their internal divisions again, and not have to deal with an insurgency from the Wallace wing of the Party. Ergo, keeping him in office makes the divisions more apparent and gives the Republicans an advantage. Their line could be something like, "With two presidents dying in the same year, there's been too many disruptions already to the chain of command. We can hold a special election to choose a new President, but otherwise, we should stick to the commander in chief that we have. To do otherwise would be Congressional overreach into the doings of the executive branch".

The GOP has its own ideology to push for besides just political advantage, so they will want to fight back against policies they think will hurt the country's international position vis-a-vis communism. Not only that, but they do have some racist ideas of their own such as not having a non-WASP in power. I think that that belief system would trump politics here. Who would come after Morgenthau in the line of succession?

 

[TRH]

The GOP has its own ideology to push for besides just political advantage, so they will want to fight back against policies they think will hurt the country's international position vis-a-vis communism. Not only that, but they do have some racist ideas of their own such as not having a non-WASP in power. I think that that belief system would trump politics here. Who would come after Morgenthau in the line of succession?

Henry Stimson as Secretary of War, I believe. He's 75 at this point, so also not likely to last long.

As for the GOP, they also have their own issues with foreign policy, being divided between the Taft isolationists and the anti-communist zealots, with the former probably more powerful at this time.

 

[jmc247]

The problem is that Morgenthau is not a dictator as president. Just as FDR was forced to back down on the Mogenthau plan public and administration/congressional resistance would check him. The army even could just refuse to implement his plans, which given the general attitudes toward Jews in the US public and military at the time, it is very likely that there will be a refusal to implement orders from a Jewish president that were putative to Germany, even if they would have done them for a gentile president.

Morgenthau believed the SS to be just the instrument of the collective will of the German population so there was no way emotionally the war ends for him if West Germany is allowed to exist and industrialize.

If the Army and Congress does buck him on his plan the most obvious next step for him is pulling out of Germany period which is well within his powers and telling Uncle Joe it's all yours. The British and French wouldn't be in a position to militarily contest the Soviet occcuption of the rest of Germany.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Morgenthau believed the SS to be just the instrument of the collective will of the German population so there was no way emotionally the war ends for him if West Germany is allowed to exist and industrialize.

If the Army and Congress does buck him on his plan the most obvious next step for him is pulling out of Germany period which is well within his powers and telling Uncle Joe it's all yours. The British and French wouldn't be in a position to militarily contest the Soviet occcuption of the rest of Germany.

Yeah that isn't going to work given US public opinion nor that of Congress. I'm pretty certain he'd get impeached for his efforts.

 

[jmc247]

Yeah that isn't going to work given US public opinion nor that of Congress. I'm pretty certain he'd get impeached for his efforts.

If the Cold War is already on in the view of the public like it was by late 48 then sure it would be politically impossible, if it's 46 and Uncle Joe is still our bestest friend other then Churchill who is out of office then no it would have certainly been possible.

Just remember how much Churchill's 46' Iron Curtain speech was panned in the US at the time.

America by 46 had no tradition of a standing army or staying behind after a European war ends and the Soviet Empire had been completely white washed. Mind you it will be a political killer even moreso for the democrats once China turns red then Italy and so on. But in 46 it was certainly possible to do.

Stalin getting years of propaganda good press in the U.S. combined with America having no tradition of staying behind after such a conflict created a window where it was possible if packaged the right way 'mission accomplished America our job is done' not we are giving the Soviet's control of the Europe continent because I want to punish Germans.

 

[TRH]

Stalin getting years of propaganda good press in the U.S. combined with America having no tradition of staying behind after such a conflict created a window where it was possible if packaged the right way 'mission accomplished America our job is done' not we are giving the Soviet's control of the Europe continent because I want to punish Germans.

The issue here being that he did want to punish Germans, and probably wouldn't have trusted the Soviets to do enough of it. So it's not a threat he'd want to actually carry out.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

If the Cold War is already on in the view of the public like it was by late 48 then sure it would be politically impossible, if it's 46 and Uncle Joe is still our bestest friend other then Churchill who is out of office then no it would have certainly been possible.

America by 46 had no tradition of a standing army or staying behind after a European war ends and the Soviet Empire had been completely white washed. Mind you it will be a political killer even moreso for the democrats once China turns red then Italy and so on. But in 46 it was certainly possible to do.

Stalin getting years of propaganda good press in the U.S. combined with America having no tradition of staying behind after such a conflict created a window where it was possible.

The elite weren't looking at Stalin as their best buddy and large part of the public didn't either. There were hopes of working with him, not giving him everything and walking away. After WW2 nearly everyone in the US understood repeating the post-Versailles isolation period was not an option to maintain peace and letting Stalin rule Europe on his own wasn't either. In the US we have a standing army before the US CW and it never went away. We didn't have a tradition of a peace time draft, but like IOTL there is no reason to get rid of it because there was a world that needed to be managed by the US, the new global hegemon. We did learn the lesson of why walking away from Europe after a WW was not an option and no one is going to let that happen again, even if soldiers want to be demobbed.