TL191 costumes

For some reason I imagine "Sergeant Union" (since the local "Cap" is almost certainly a Socialist and "Sergeant" has more of a working-class ring than "Captain" although that may be the British Army influencing my thinking), although I can imagine another character called "General Strike" (who may or may not be a parody of the same).;)

General Strike, I like that.
 
I'm quite aware the cs in the books wore khaki, but that mean wearing essentially a british uniform with different insignia which is a bit pointless.

I actually tend to think that the Army of the Confederate States, all things considered, would probably have more of a "French" look at the start of the Great War; while given that the Confederates don't have a Revanchist movement inflicting literally Napoleonic Uniforms on a 20th Century Army as a consequence of insecurity stemming from the Franco-Prussian War, I do tend to imagine that the Confederates would retain the Kepi amongst State Regiments and for dress uniforms (the hat having become associated with the CS successes during the War of Secession and the Second Mexican War) - given that the Army of the Confederate States is also likely to be larger and more prestigious than the British Army it would almost HAVE to look to the French Army (as the Largest and Most Advanced Entente force upon which it might model itself) as a Model.

With that in mind I tend to imagine that the Confederate Uniform is genuinely uniform in colour but seldom in cut during the first year of the Great War (especially outside the ranks of the Regular Army, which would probably wear uniforms not TOO different from those seen on the Expeditionary Force that chased Pancho Villa at this point in Our Own Timeline, campaign hats et al), with quite a few harkening back to distinguished predecessors likes Wheat's Tigers or the Hampton Legion et al; it's also easy to imagine some States borrowing more from the British and some more from the French in terms of Uniform and some preferring more simple "American" Uniforms.

All in all this is an army that, in a slightly more subtle fashion, harks back to its 19th Century Glory Days.


By contrast one sees the US Army as more stringently Uniform; definitely the creation of Mass Production and very strongly under German influence (although I suspect that the United States uniform lacks most of the frills seen in their German counterparts); while there may be some unofficial flourishes, the prevailing aspect in one of homogeneity (except insofar as climate and reliability of supply may vary across the various War Zones).

I tend to imagine the US Army at the start of the Great War as one second to none in terms of equipment, but rather insecure (hence the mistakes made at the start of the War that so prolonged it): it has too much to prove, both to itself and to the Northern People, for it to be as clinical as its prevailing philosophy expects it to be (overconfident and insecure in much the same way as the French Army was in Our Own timeline).

This might be reflected in the uniforms of the US Army at this point, although I'm not quite certain what elements of Uniform could best reflect this.

That being said, one tends to see the US Army as wearing Uniforms that would be strange to a non-191 United States Army, while the South wears uniforms more similar to that of the US Army during our own First World War (it must be the "Khaki") but carries weapons that bear more resemblance to European models than those of Colt or Browning.
 
I was going through some note I took while reading the series and there are a few "canon" elements that can be said about uniforms in Timeline-191 as well as some extrapolations for Great War era uniforms:

THE GREAT WAR

CSA

ARMY
- a statement is made that what the confederate call "butternut" is identical to british "khaki" so any OTL british imperial forces (australia, canada, uk, et...) repro uniform could probably work as a good base for cosplay.

- officer wore visored cap with branch piping (red=artillery, pale blue=infantry, yellow=artillery). no mention is made of the design so this could be one similar to OTL british/USA or French. sloping ones similar to civil war era caps are possible but you would assume fashion would have evolved.

- No mention is made of cap badges so they might follow british useage and have regimental insignias, follow french useage and have a branch emblem or plain regimental number or else they could all bear a national emblem of some sort

- officers wear their insignias on their collar (and appear to be identical to OTL CSA ones) on branch-coloured tabs. A late war uniform with an open collar might have the tabs vertically on the lapels.

- cavalrymen, at least at the begining of the war, wore plumed hats with a yellow cord. officers have yellow trim on their uniforms and wear high, tight boots.

NAVY
- one passage have them wear white. This probably means that they wear the same general type of uniform most navies of the world. One possibility is that their winter uniform is not dark blue but dark grey, just like the CSA navy OTL.

- Officers' ranks are indicated by stars on their shoulder straps and stripes around the cuffs. The 2 rank insignias described do not fit either with the british or CSA system OTL but rather the stripes follow the US progression and the shoulder straps insignias might have been inspired by the cap badges worn by confederate navy officers OTL but with the anchor.

KENTUCKY STATE POLICE
- wear plumed (peacock) hats but with different coloured cords then cavalrymen

MUNICIPAL POLICE
- uniforms appear to be similar to british bobbies of the era (including the pith helmet) but in grey.


USA

ARMY
- uniform are green-grey, more then likely meant to be the same as german felgrau.

- are said to wear a forage cap. The term means various style but considering the german influence in their fashion, more then likely means the "pork pie" type

- have branch pipping on their headgear which appear to same as the CSA.

- despite the german appearance of their uniform, the US army has retained its traditional rank insigias (i.e. the one used nowaday OTL).

- they wear puttees and breeches.

MARINE
- uniform appears to be the same as the army in term of cut but the colour is forest green.

NAVY
- seems to be the same as OTL which would make sense considering it was not that different at the time to the german one.


CANADA

ARMY
- ATL during the Great War, canadian planes are said to bear maple leaf roundels and the provincial flag of Quebec was already the fleurdelyse before it became a republic. Since OTL these were both introduced after World War 2, this could indicate that a number of local symbols and elements of visual identity were adopted earlier then OTL. This could mean for example a more unified look to uniforms.

- Just before the US invasion of Canada, a canadian lieutenant is said to wear a "single pip on his shoulder board" which is consistant with british-style pre-unification canadian army (post-unification, he would have worn a single bar instead). Although the pip is more then likely meant to be the order of the bath one, it could be one of a number of pips later proposed or even plain ones


INTERWAR AND WORLD WAR 2

CSA

FREEDOM PARTY
- In the interwar period, the uniform first used by Freedom Party guards is repeatedly described as "like the army but different" which could mean a slightly different cut or different accessory and badges. At point, it appears that the guards changed to a grey uniform. unlike they OTL counterpart (SS) they wear the same insignias as the army altough with english calque of SS rank names.

Stalwarts appear to have simply worn white shirts and butternut slacks. Unlike the SA, no rank insignias are mention although considering the FP Guards wear army style insignias, if they were to wear rank insignias, it would probably be the same for them. One would assume they also wore they party pin since a passage between a stalwart organiser and a local member mention that the design worn by members who joined after the Freedom Party taking over was different.

On the note of the party badge, no description is given save that the ones worn by later members has a black border, the same as nazi party pins OTL. This could mean that they are enamel pins with a circular version of the Freedom Party flag (reversed battle flag) surrounded by the party name.

ARMY
- would seem to be more or less the OTL WW2 british uniform with the same difference as mentioned above.


USA

ARMY
- uniform still green-grey but one assume the cut has evolved to follow fashion. I get the feeling that an integral WW2 german army uniform but with all the patches and decoration replaced with OTL US ones was what Turtledove had in mind. A US flag patch with a reduced number of stars would be a good replacement for the reichsaddler worn on the upper arms by members of the heer.


QUEBEC

ARMY
- uniforms are described as identical to US ones but in blue-gray cloth. no insignias are mentioned though it is doubtfull they would follow the US system as historically, few countries have done so and then only partially (mainly enlisted ranks). They might have simply chosen a fairly straightforward system as new countries tend to do (i.e. 1-3 bars on a plain collar tab then 1-3 bars on a collar tab with pipping, etc....)

Although it would be anachronistic, something based on modern Quebec law enforcement insignias wouldn't look too much out of place.

MEXICO

ARMY
- Uniforms appear to be similar to CSA ones but more yellowish
 
Thank you kindly for posting these details Mr Pasquin; I shall make use of them as a reference and may comment upon your own thoughts later.:)
 
something I found (from the US in 1912), change the cap badge to something more appropriate and it would be perfect for a Great War era CSA officer cap:

$
 
It does look like rather a Good Pick for the Great War-era CSA; it bears the right sort of familiar resemblance to a"War of Secession" kepi.

I keep meaning to add more to this thread, but have failed to do so - I shall have to do something about that.:)
 
QUEBEC

ARMY
- uniforms are described as identical to US ones but in blue-gray cloth. no insignias are mentioned though it is doubtfull they would follow the US system as historically, few countries have done so and then only partially (mainly enlisted ranks). They might have simply chosen a fairly straightforward system as new countries tend to do (i.e. 1-3 bars on a plain collar tab then 1-3 bars on a collar tab with pipping, etc....)

1471138403535.jpg


...too blue? (OTL Finnish Air Force dress uniform)
 
...too blue? (OTL Finnish Air Force dress uniform)

I could be completely wrong on this one but I sort of imagined turtledove was thinking of the late WW1 french uniform:

3844368_orig.jpg


or the polish one:

5738ae3fc5ee60e9490cd45e040e5014.jpg


mind you, since finland was an ally of germany, would make sense. To be honnest, Quebec doesn't feel as much as a stand-in as some other parts of Timeline-191
 
6141334_orig.jpg


^I really do like the idea that the US Army during the First Great War would naturally use a German-type field cap; it recently struck me that one could use the roundel painted onto US warplanes during the First World War in Our Own timeline for the National cockade on such caps.^

etats_unis_hisaef.jpg


^It is not impossible that a US Regiment or Division might boast its own individual badge, but it does not seem unreasonable that this would be used as the "Generic" version.^
 
^I really do like the idea that the US Army during the First Great War would naturally use a German-type field cap; it recently struck me that one could use the roundel painted onto US warplanes during the First World War in Our Own timeline for the National cockade on such caps.^



^It is not impossible that a US Regiment or Division might boast its own individual badge, but it does not seem unreasonable that this would be used as the "Generic" version.^

well OTL US soldiers, unlike their british empire counterpart, didn't wear unit hat badge but just a generic one so a single national roundel would make sense. It could be green-grey all over except for the thin branch pipping around the top.
 
I must admit to being a little embarrassed after failing to track down a properly grey-green field cap!:happyblush
 
I must admit to being a little embarrassed after failing to track down a properly grey-green field cap!:happyblush

What about this ? the roundel is different then the one you suggested but I thought that since the various member states of the German empire wore th
eir own cockade in addition to the national one, it would help the US stands out a bit.

The original had a red band but I thought that a simple red pipping (artillery) around the top would be enough.

191-us-ww1.jpg
 
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Hello All,

First time poster here (so please be gentle).

I've been a fan of Timeline 191 (for HT's faults) and had some of my own thoughts on his uniform descriptions. I've been studying WWI and WWII uniforms for awhile now, so here are some of my interpretations and parallels that I have seen. What I see for one of Turtledove's many faults is he tries too hard to shove certain things to be direct parallels from OTL in to 191 (like Mules being direct copies of Stukas).

First Great War
  • CS uniforms- I've imagined a mix of British and French influence with some of the War of Succession thrown in.
    • British-cut uniforms of cloth or wool with Mills webbing (considering the abundance of cotton in the South and usage of Enfield-style weapons).
    • Regimental numbers on buttons or on shoulder straps.
    • Kepis for infantry with regimental numbers, unit or state badges, etc.
    • Cloth puttees.
    • Helmets are a copy of the Mk. I British helmets.
  • US uniforms- OTL American uniforms with German influences.
    • Cut remains the same as OTL American tunics with a hue more closer to green-grey (like earlier feldgrau colors rather than the complete grey of particular German uniforms and equipment).
    • Hats are either the campaign hat or garrison cap (envelope style). I don't see a total use of the peakless forage cap as in the German style, but perhaps with select units.
    • Cloth or canvas puttees.
    • Helmets are the biggest issue I have with HT and other fans. While everyone tends to imagine the US helmet as being a clone of the German Stahlhelm, I think we are overlooking the development of American helmets like the Model 5. The Model 5 had a cut I can best describe as a mix between the Stahlhelm and the M1 of WWII. This matches with the "coal scuttle" of the books but keeping it distinct from a German design. In fact, the Model 5 bears a close resemblance to the helmets adopted by the Swiss army.
Second Great War
  • CS uniforms
    • Again, a British-style like the two-piece battledress in either denim or wool. It might perhaps even bear resemblance to the HBT uniforms of OTL.
    • Freedom Party smocks being similar to the British camouflage smocks issued to reconnaissance troops (not the Denison smock associated with paratroopers).
    • Helmets are the Mk. II, Mk. III, or Mk. IV of British make, with the brimless tanker/para helmets also available.
  • US uniforms
    • Again, a cut like the Class A uniform of OTL, progressing towards more practical field uniforms like the M41 field jacket. Colors are still the early Feldgrau.
    • Garrison caps are more prevalent, just as the campaign hat fell out of use in OTL.
    • Helmets are either a continuation of the Model 5 of IGW or the helmet has evolved in the the M1 helmet of OTL, as I imagine the progression of helmet design would have been.
I am probably missing a lot, but these are the things that have stood out to me. Thoughts?
 
Welcome to the Southern Victorians my good fellow. I must say that I agree with almost all your ideas (it's always nice to see a fellow advocate of the Model 5 as the US helmet of choice during Timeline-191).
 
oh hey great! I've just come back to this post after 10years,thanks for all the input Marc. Btw, do i know you from the action force facebook group?
 
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